Forgive the length. You guys gave me a couple pages to respond to. Also forgive me if I brought things back up that were already addressed. I apologize for my redundancy as well as my repetitiveness.
...There was an execution in California and there were a lot of Christians out front supporting the death penalty, and a lot of people found that ironic, particularly people who, y'know, know the words of Christ. Yeah, I didn't know "Thou shalt not kill" had a footnote. But apparently it's "Thou shalt not kill* Unless you really want to" [...] I didn't find that ironic at all, Christians for the death penalty, because after all; if it weren't for capital punishment, y'know, we'd have no Easter."
Wrong.
Get this - the scripture sez do not kill. Ever. Under no circumstances. Jesus didn't strike against those who killed and tortured him.
Therefore, to follow the scripture to the letter, you shouldn't defend yourself when someone tries to kill you. Because even killing in self-defense is still killing.
Now, I'm not prepared to got that far.
Wrong. The Bible says "Do not murder," not "Do not kill." Not all killing is murder, just as not all sex is adultery. But besides that, Christ also said "Do not resist an evil man. Furthermore, "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." The only sure way to beat evil is to let it burn itself out. If you match an evil act with an evil act, all you will do is paint the streets with blood. "If a man steals your cloak from you, give him the shirt also." This serves two purposes. First, if a man tries to steal from you, and you just give him what he wants and thensome, you have destroyed his act of stealing with your act of giving. There is nothing left to steal, and in this the very fabric of the act of theft is undone. If you lay down your life for a man ready to murder you, he will likely lose all motivation to murder you. And if he doesn't, murder, the evil act, is destroyed by your sacrifice. This is the only true way to abolish evil. What's more, since you seem so insistent on keeping score, the Bible tells us "in being nice to your enemies, you heap burning coals on their heads." If you eliminate all cause for them to want to harm you, and they do so anyway, you can rest assured it will be atoned for. What's more, is anything you lose in the process is credited to you a hundred fold in Heaven.
Beyond all that, I imagine it would quite make a thief begin to question the very meaning of life if this person he's trying to rob bestows him with an incredible act of kindness.
Would you dare say you're a better Christian than Paul, or a more righteous man than David?
Maybe.. I'm not keeping score, alltough I haven't killed or endulged in adultery. That's got to count for something.
Your words betray you, you ARE keeping score. It accounts for nothing if you have any sin in your life at any time since you have been born.
Here's an interesting metaphor: We start at 0. Committing sin gets us negative points. Lack of sin does NOT give us positive points. A score below 0 gets us death as a result. Yet Christ offers us a way to get around this petty, childish scorekeeping by taking the death our score calls for upon himself.
Christ clearly pushes the bounds of forgiveness. If you place boundaries on your willingness to forgive, Christ warns, so will God.
I'm not God or Christ.
When I hear someone molested, raped and killed children for years and shows no remorse at all... I simply can't forgive that. It's too much for me. Alltough I hope God can.
If God judges me by my own standards I think I should be o.k. tough. Guess we'll see.
Let me rephrase that: Christ called US to push the boundaries of forgiveness.
If God judges you, His judgment will be perfect because He is perfect. It will not be this "That crime is ok, we can let that slide, good thing you didn't do those we can't let slide." ALL crimes will be atoned for.
Moving on:
I'm pretty sure the original text (unbastardized) states something along the lines of 'thou shalt not murder'. I could be wrong about that, however.
You are absolutely right about that. There are multiple words for killing. The one used in the Ten Commandments, and the one used when Christ talks about said commandments, are the word for "Murder" specifically. In fact, I haven't read a translation of the Bible that doesn't say Murder. But I haven't read every version...
Regardless, if the original texts weren't bastardized in this regard, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. In other words, he negates earlier records of what Moses declared to be one of God's laws.
That's the biggest problem, we have no real way of knowing how much (if any) of the Bible is incorrect. I suppose the best solution would be to read the original texts, but that would require learning another language. And even then, the people who wrote it in the first place could have stretched the truth or forgotton to include important details, and that's not even going into how the current Holy Bible was put together.
Reason why I'm pretty much ignoring the Old Testament (being old and filled with everything). Christianity is based on the New Testament anyway.
If you call yourself a Christian, and claim to believe the New Testament, reread 2 Timothy 3:16:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
There you go. That's Paul talking to Timothy about the Scripture they had in the days of Acts. That includes the Old Testament, bud.
While (as I have pointed out) the original texts may state something different (although I doubt it in this case), current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.
Petty theft = murder/rape?
You got to be kidding me! I recall no such thing. Heck I wouldn't be a christian if that were true.
Revelation 21:27 (Talking about New Jerusalem): Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
There you go. All shameful acts, and all deceitful acts have been brought to the same level, with the saeme power of keeping people out of Heaven. Yet that doesn't negate Christ's sacrifice. He still forgives these acts, and by His blood we are made pure. All of us. Every last one. From liars to petty thieves to child molesters to murderers.
While (as I have pointed out) the original texts may state something different (although I doubt it in this case), current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.
Petty theft = murder/rape?
You got to be kidding me! I recall no such thing. Heck I wouldn't be a christian if that were true.
...current scripture states that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord.
Really? So if I believed in Christianity, then I should find the idea of theft just as abhorrent as serial rape and/or murder?
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
The very nature of a sin is that it is an affront to God. The only difference between sins is how humans treat them. That's why there are Seven Deadly Sins, it's because they lead there, not because they're worse.
In other words, treating sins as different is a double-standard. Is killing a child worse than killing an adult? Double-standard. Is committing adultery worse than stealing a candy bar from a supermarket? Double-standard.
Very true. For no evil of ANY measure, small or great, can stand in the presence of perfection and yet live.
Perhaps in the eyes of men crimes seem different. I can't exactly disagree with murder being worse than petty theft. I think the whole "all sins equal in the eyes of God" thing is meaning that no matter how grievous or trivial your sins, they're still sins and need to be forgiven.
Good point. All stains need to be removed, to refer back to the "Clean-up" metaphor.
The very nature of a sin is that it is an affront to God.
I consider a sin to be something which causes unnecessary damage to someone, physcological or physical or whatever. I care about things depending on how they effect my own kind and other living things, not whether it pleases God (probably, I'll admit, because I don't believe in him/her).
That's understandable. But we are talking from a perspective of one who believes in God, and God is the chiefly hurt party in any crime or sin. Jesus' attitude of forgiving others of their sins would have been asinine if this weren't true. It would be like me forgiving Karajorma for stealing Mefustae's car. It wouldn't make sense unless I was hurt more by it than Mefustae was.
So from what I understand of original sin and the things stated in this thread, being born a human is as bad as ruthlessly torturing a nun.
Either the religions wrote something down wrong in the bible, or God isn't that special.
You're touching on something that wars have been fought over. I believe that being born itself is not a sin, but we are born into sin, in such a way that without God, it's literally impossible to go our whole lives without sinning. Even with God it's very hard, and I by no means believe perfection is an attainable goal this side of Eternity. Yet I still strive for it. also notice, before Adam's sin, there was no death in the World.
Alright, not talking much on the nature of sin itself but rather on capital punishment. Christians should know where they stand on this issue, because the bible is clear that God is for capital punishment, ironically most "Christians" are just as confused as everyone else.
Let me show you guys biblical teaching on capital punishment.
I've had plenty of time to find my scriptures and will have at it... Please, I'm not trying to start a huge debate but I really want to defend this position. I've spent 
of time on this so please forgive me on the length.
First - Old Testament
Genesis 9:5-6
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.
God spoke these words to Noah after the flood in context of the covenant He made with mankind to never again destroy mankind by flood. (Note: This command preceded the Mosaic Law which by nature was temporal until fulfilled by Christ in the New Covenant ) This covenant was not temporal, but eternal in nature... thus exist in the New Covenant
Man is made in the image of God; therefore, a fatal attack against God's image-bearers is an attack against God Himself. This is the reason God commanded that the individual who sheds another man's blood shall have his own blood shed as well.
When we come to the Mosaic Covenant we find an many crimes for which capital punishment was applicable. The Law of Moses instructed the penalty of death for many offenses, most of which were moral and religious in nature. While human government is no longer responsible for dealing out capital punishment for most moral and religious offences (as they were under Mosaic Law), they are still responsible for administering capital punishment in the case of the intentional murder of an innocent human being (Noahic Covenant).
You shall not kill. (Exodus 20:13; see also Deuteronomy 5:17)
The hebrew word for kill is ratsach which always refers to the murder of another human being (whether it be intentional or accidental). Although there are more words for kill that refer to the taking of life a accurate word for ratsach is "murder". Muwth is another word means to kill, often prematurely; i.e. execution. This is the power God has over His creation (Deuteronomy 32:39), what God intended to do to Moses for not circumcising his son, what God commanded Israel to do to those who sacrifice their children to Molech, and what David consented to be done to him had he been guilty of any wrongdoing against Saul (II Samuel 14:32). The prohibition in the Ten Commandment then, is against murder, not killing. It is a prohibition against the unjust taking of innocent human life, not the taking of any life whatsoever.
It's wise for use to to make a clear distinction between killing and murder as well. Killing can be just, but murder is always unjust. That's why it is factually incorrect to say capital punishment is the killing of those who kill others. Capital punishment is the killing of those who murder others. It would be equally wrong to say capital punishment is the murdering of those who murder others. Taking the life of an individual who unjustly took the life of another human being is not murder, but killing. To use "killing" or "murder" of both parties interchangeably is to confuse the just taking of life with the unjust.
New Testament
Pilate therefore said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin." (John 19:10-11, NAS)
Alright, what is important to note about this passage is that Jesus did not challenge Pilate's governal right to sentence Him to death. He implicitly affirmed Pilate's right to administer capital punishment, and that the right came from God. He did not say, "You have no authority to do this," but rather - "You only have this authority because it is given to you by God." Pilate thought he held the power of Jesus' life in his own hand, but Jesus countered that Pilate would not be able to crucify Him unless God allowed him to do so.... Jesus challenged the source of Pilate's right, not the right itself.
There is no question that the state's execution of Jesus was unjust (because Jesus was innocent, and capital punishment is for the guilty), but that is no reflection on the just nature of capital punishment itself. While there may be unjust applications of a state's right to execute certain criminals for purposes of justice, it does not taint the just nature of capital punishment itself.
Now turn your attention to Paul - Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment 13:3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation, 13:4 for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is God's servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:1-4)
According to Paul the purpose of human government is to reward good and punish evil...
Festus, wanting to do the Jews a favor, asked Paul, "Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and be tried before me there on these charges?" 25:10 Paul replied, "I am standing before Caesar's judgment seat, where I should be tried. I have done nothing wrong to the Jews, as you also know very well. 25:11 If then I am in the wrong and have done anything that deserves death, I am not trying to escape dying, but if not one of their charges against me is true, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!" 25:12 Then, after conferring with his council, Festus replied, "You have appealed to Caesar; to Caesar you will go!" (Acts 25:9-11)
Paul had been imprisoned for approximately two years when he stood trial before Festus. The Jews in attendance brought many accusations against him. Paul maintained his innocence from those charges, but did not object to being put to death if he had done anything that was deserving of death. Paul did not object to the possibility of capital punishment by arguing that it was unjust punishment... or in contradiction to God's design. To the contrary, he acknowledged there were crimes deserving of death, and was willing to submit to that penalty had he actually committed those crimes.
I believe this to be on topic and not directly dealing with the nature of sin but the justification of capital punishment from a "Christian" point of view.
Wow. Truly, thank you for that. Something solid to go on.
Now, about that, I believe it falls along with the "Submit to Authority" thing, because all people given authority are given it by God. Therefore, if the current authority uses capital punishment, we are not to actively oppose this. That's why I'm not actively protesting much, not even the war. The thing I cry out against the most is the misrepresentation of Christ by people, E.G. the Westboro Baptist church (the "God hates fags" people). This is also why I believe that Christianity was never meant to be a world power. I don't believe in the death penalty, but I don't protest at executions.
It appears as if Jesus only died for the sins of mankind that Trashman wanted him to die for. He should be able to pick and choose which sins people can live long enough to possibly repent for.
It's not quite mad. Recall that some sins are basically unforgiveable. Murder, for example, is a bit tough to forgive, because the person who could do it with any real meaning is kinda dead.
Once again, Christ is the chief injured party by any sin, therefore, He has chief power to forgive.
Besides that, you're forgetting that Christians believe life is an eternal thing. Death is merely a transition from one kind of life to a far better one. Thus, the dead can yet forgive, because while dead, they do not cease to exist.
Contradicting passages, FTW!
What?! Where?!!
Now explain to me why choosing to die by suicide is an unforgivable sin but choosing to put someone in a state where they can't repent by executing them isn't?
Karajorma, we agree on something (sorta). I expect the Rapture tomorrow. lol, jk.
Blasphemy is defined as giving oneself the attributes of God. So I guess, saying you should have the power to decide when a person should live or die is blasphemy, unless you are, in fact, God. However, according to the Bible, God puts people in power, and the things they decide, they do so with His authority. So considering that, IDK if I'd really call that blasphemy.
You see, as Christians living under the Great Commission ("Go forth and make disciples of all nations..."), we pretty much have to assume that all people are able to accept Christ. However, I do believe that there are some people who just won't accept redemption, for whatever reason. And as jdjtcagle said, no one will seek God unless God has sought them out. Although, I do believe that in Christ, God has sought out every single human being.
Anyway, what I'm ultimately getting at, is it's God that decides when a person's time is up. However, I don't believe in people have a place in that.
And to add to the debate at hand (and I apologize for bringing up the A word again), any Christian who believes in the Death Penalty for the reasons jdjtcagle brought up above, but doesn't believe in abortion for the same reason, is putting in place a double standard.
That is one reason why I don't believe in either. Although I don't blow up electric chairs or abortion clinics.
