Poll

What is your favourite capital ship in Freespace 2 (try to pick Shivan and Terran)

Sathanas
Lucifer (Not in the game I know, but it can be placed in FRED)
Orion
Colossus
Leviathan
Ravana
Demon
Rakshasa
Sobek
Hatsheput
Iceni
Cain
Lilith (practically same as cain but oh well)
Hippocrates
Arcadia (more of a base really but still It's a significant installation)
Deimos
Aeolous

Author Topic: Favourite Cap ship  (Read 46889 times)

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SOC, GTVI and Command are about the same rank.

IIRC SOC is a division of the GTVI.

      And you don't remember correctly because as I quoted, for the missions with the SOC it stated that the SOC is working in conjunction with the GTVI. Conjunction means they're separate to begin with.

 
No, I'm just saying that SOC is doing their different missions without needing permission/confirmation from regular Command.

      Everytime Alpha 1 does an SOC mission he volunteers for it.
      How many people are going to volunteer to sabotage their own flagship?
      If as an SOC operative, Alpha 1 destroys a civilian transport and is consequently executed by GTVA Command. Then any volunteer SOC operative who's sabotaging the collossus will be guilty of TREASON and will be likewise executed. How many people do you think are going to do that? Willing to die for the sake of letting the hated enemy get away just so the GTVI can learn a bit more about eTAK?  They'd learn a ****load more about eTAK if they captured the Iceni. Not let it get away.

      And more importantly, how many SOC missions that Alpha 1 flies are in direct opposition to the GTVA? None. The SOC mission are not anything remotely even like going against your own forces. The only time you fight your own forces is when some Vasudan admiral decides he's going to take out Bosch on his own.
   
      Now why exactly does that Admiral even know about your mission? The Vasudan Admiral knows what you're doing, where you're doing it and at what time but he attacks anyway. Most militaries work on a need to know basis so why is some Vasudan admiral down the chain of command aware of ALL the details of your mission? If the SOC was separate from Command and not above or beyond it in authority would some Vasudan punk down the line know all that stuff? I seriously doubt it. Rather Command saw fit to tell him, because of course, Command is in Command.

 

Offline ShadowGorrath

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Replay the SOC mission where Vasudans attack. Though they were rogue.

And anyway, I don't care. It just got way off topic, just for you all to say that I'm wrong.

 
Replay the SOC mission where Vasudans attack. Though they were rogue.

      Exactly, the Vasudans were going against Command not the SOC. Rogue, renegades, etcetera. Snipes says so himself in both the mission and the debriefing.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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A.A. you seriously need to take a good doze of common sense and milatary and inteligence reality. Dude for the love of god our own milatary has an inteligence branch. Hell the parliament hell most of the hdea military general and admirals  had no idea of the missions of some of these agents untill one of them was killed. and the first to learn about it was the chief of the milatary and the president and of course the dude in charge of the inteligence brank of the army. Hell these guis are only ansewreble to 3 or 4 ppl in the entire milatary and political sistem. Not even the misnitry of defence can order the guy around.

Hell these guis outposition almost all of the generals the entire parliament gouverment and inteligence services in the country.

So how the hell can you say that SOC operatives are in lower ranking then the GTVA command. Sure in theory perhaps they are but in reality they would probably only aswer to a handfull of ppl. that is all. the same goes for the GTVI altogh the GTVI would actualy be answerable to alot more ppl then the SOC .

Also for all those ppl who believe inteligence services are always under controll i say to you bull*** you obviously have no clue as to what an inteligence branch is.  As one of the retired inteligence generals said on TV once "You can not establish a inteligence service that you expect to give you results and do its job in a proper way and expect to have controll over it. The ppl. who believe such a thing are idiots and should just keep theyr mouth shut and be happy they can sleep well at night. Noone will ever fully controll its inteligence service . Ppl. have tried and the results are more then questionable "

this is an aproximated quote about 70% accurate since i had to aproximate some of the words . But this litle speach was tatood into my memory after i heard it.

What you want more proof of this common sense? take a closer look at the CIA and whole lot of other inteligence services.

Oh yeah and for a real life comparison between GTVI and SOC take a closer look at our own inteligence services the SRI and SIE just to name 2 of them . They are both under control by a special comission of the parliament and are suposed to give regural reports on the activities they do . However the Amy has its own Inteligence service yet noone has ever heard of it or its dealings hell the only time i heard of it was when the president admited that a special operative from the inteligence services was killed in action. By corelation everyone could se who he was talking about since it was just one death.

Also as far as vasudans use yellow and terrans use green there might be something a bit more then that. For example we know that vasudans or rather we can conclude that vasudans are usualy more adept at certain things versus the terrans such as reactors that provide more power then theyr terran counterparts.

This however could also prove to be that they build more expensive reactors??

Also as far as beams go even though the Hattie is a brand new destroyer class even more new then the Hecate as one would conclude it has less beam cannons the the Orion . However we do know that Vasudan beams have a shorter recharge period and IIRC about 1 second more of fire time as oposed the theyr terran counterparts. However they could also be needing more power then the terran beams. How much more? well not a hell of a lot more since that wouldnt make any sence and also vasudan warships would not be able to mount suh heavy aaaf defences as oposed to some of their terran counterparts.

The Deimos is at least in part a result of cooperation between the Vasudans and the Terrans.

The Collie was one such example but the Collie is an exception here since neither side could of afforded the pricetag on that thing on their own  i supose.

Also ppl seem to forget about other ships that are able and usualy carry both terran and vasudan weapon sistems such as the missile sistems on both vasudan and terran fighters/bommbers and lets not forge the main cannons such as the Promethious??

So with all due repect saying that a Deimos would be unable to mount vasudan beams is ridiculous .

The Deimos was designed to maximize firepower the same can be said if it mounted Vasudan beams.

Hoever if from a technical POV it would be possible and hell even more then reasonable it would be rather difficult from a political POV.

Die shivan die!!
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Offline blowfish

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Not sure how relevant it is, but remember that it is Command who tells you that you have outlived your usefulness as a deep cover operative.

 
So how the hell can you say that SOC operatives are in lower ranking then the GTVA command. Sure in theory perhaps they are but in reality they would probably only aswer to a handfull of ppl. that is all. the same goes for the GTVI altogh the GTVI would actualy be answerable to alot more ppl then the SOC .

       Right, they answer to a handful of people . .. a handful of people in GTVA Command
       Thanks for agreeing with me, though you could've done it with a few less words.
     
Quote
So with all due repect saying that a Deimos would be unable to mount vasudan beams is ridiculous .

The Deimos was designed to maximize firepower the same can be said if it mounted Vasudan beams.

       Sure you can put VSlash on the Deimos, if you rip out a half dozen other weapons and retrofit half the hull. If you think "oh, I'll just swap the four TerSlash for VSlash" then no, you can't, because that's just a load of of munchkin  bull****.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 07:22:50 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline AlphaOne

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So basicly you are saing that 2 species that probably even worked toghether at some point or another to develop beam cannons would use such totaly different methods of achieving the same thing that you would have to rebuild more then half the ship?

Are you for real? Need i remind you that the Collie even if it was a joint effort which must of used the more powerfull vasudan designed reactors and power sistems would only be able to mount vasudan beams right?

Also since the deimos powersistems are vasudan in origin then the Deimos by your own logic should only be able to mount vasufan beams. and that the vasudan designed powergrid would not be able to opperate anithing other then vasudan weapons. Also it is interesting to note how you completely went for what suited you best and leaving out the tyni little detail about the fighters and bommbers.

Or are you gooing to tell me that the Prometheus is actualy a joint effort by both  vasudans and terrans since we alreay know it to be pure terran weapon. Or how about the Subackh or many other weapons that are terran.

Also a hand full of ppl does not make the SOC directly answerable to GTVA command it just mean that GTVA Command will have to be notified at some point in time about various operations should the need for support from GTVA command be required. Also the fact that they should informe GTVA command about some things would most likely mean you would have a person who is more or less resposible for aproving these things (im talking about support to the SOC when they ask for it) . Also the other ppl informed would most likely be one or more then one ppl of the GTVA security council and one or more ppl from the vasudan imperium . That is all.

This beeing said i clearely state that unlike GTVI who are more or less under more rigid chains of command (though i wouldnt bet on it) the SOC can bypass the entire GTVA Command and go directly to the "president" if you want or the chief of staff if they have to and report only to them. Does that make things clear for you?


Some of the ppl. here seem to suffer from the GTI rebelion sindrome . Also im willing to bet most of the ppl here actualy believe that their countries inteligence service actualy reports everithing it does to the parliament or something like that. If you do believe such a thing then let me say this to you :Reality is  very different thing.

Also simply because the SOC asks for volunteers doesnt mean it could not recruit its own ppl . For all we know it already has its own ppl. Even Alpha1 is a SOC opperative once he accepted the initial mission. Its just that there would be no point in parading you as and SOC opperative since you would be more or less useless then. Also the voluntering is because they do not want to order someone to go a suicide mission someone that would turn tail and run at the first sign of trouble. They simply ask for those that are insane enough to actualy agree to go on these missions. Im actualy suprised they managed to get a hold of so many dont you?
Die shivan die!!
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Offline blowfish

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Reactors generate power.  Nothing else.  Using a Vasudan reactor does not mean a ship has to mount vasudan beams.  Terran Ships use Terran beams because Terrans prefer to use Terran components (its probably easier to integrate them with all of the other systems, like fire control too).  The Deimos could, in theory, mount VSlash beams, but my guess is that those more powerful beams consume more power, meaning that the Deimos could only mount two of them, where it can mount 4 TerSlashers (people consider the TerSlash and VSlash equivalent, but they are really not).

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Actualy i happedn to agree with you on this one in part. I do believe that there is somewhat of power differential between the vasudan beams and the terran beams however i do not believe it to be that great that it would mean the Deimos would have to reduce to half its beam cannons. Perhaps one would dissapear .

Also i happen to agree with some tech deificulties here. However im sure they could or rathery they can be avoided if you happen to adapt terran circuits to operate with vasudan sistems. I'm ure its not imposible. Hell if that were the case then the Colllie should not exist.

Perhaps terran beams are also a bit less expensive as oposed to the vasudan ones. Also theres is also the political fator to be inclueded.
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Offline Droid803

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All Terran beams are weaker than their Vasudan counterpart. If the ships are designed jointly, Terran beams must be cheaper or something, since there's no reason to use them otherwise. (Other than more beams vs. less beams).

SVas >>>>>>>>>> SGreen
VSlash>>TerSlash
BVas>BGreen

Also simply because the SOC asks for volunteers doesnt mean it could not recruit its own ppl . For all we know it already has its own ppl. Even Alpha1 is a SOC opperative once he accepted the initial mission. Its just that there would be no point in parading you as and SOC opperative since you would be more or less useless then. Also the voluntering is because they do not want to order someone to go a suicide mission someone that would turn tail and run at the first sign of trouble. They simply ask for those that are insane enough to actualy agree to go on these missions. Im actualy suprised they managed to get a hold of so many dont you?

The SOC asks Alpha 1 to volunteer because Alpha 1 is (supposed to be) a good/very good/godly pilot.
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So basicly you are saing that 2 species that probably even worked toghether at some point or another to develop beam cannons would use such totaly different methods of achieving the same thing that you would have to rebuild more then half the ship?

      What the hell are you on about?
      Who cares who designed the reactor, power is power. Haven't I said that already?
      I'm saying Vasudan Slash Beams are BIGGER, more POWERFUL and REQUIRE MORE REACTOR POWER. You can't fit a beam weapon that probably requires at least 50% more space and who knows how much MORE power into the same space as another weapon. Capital ships aren't fighters where you just throw a new weapon into the slot, they're large ships designed with specific weapons as part of the primary armament. If you change that armament, such as removing smaller TerSlash beams and installing larger, more hungry, VSlash beams then you need to rework the hull because the hull's structure wasn't designed to fit that big of a component into that small of space.

     If that's not clear, here's a analogy. You have a computer, it comes with a 17" monitor. You custom build a desk to fit your computer, and in your desk is a hole which is just big enough for a 17" monitor to fit into. Then you go to your friends house, your friend has a 21" monitor . . . you think "wow, my FSOpen would look better on that than my ****ty monitor" so you go out and buy a 21". But guess what, the 21" doesn't fit in your desk. You're going to have to cut a bigger a whole in your desk to fit it in there.
      It's the same with the Deimos, the Deimos' hull is designed to carry TerSlash. You can't just put in Vslash without reworking the hull to make the clearly larger weapons even fit in there. Then you'll need more power, what are you going to put in? an even bigger reactor? Or are you going to have to divert power from other weapons? Nothing comes for free.

Quote
This beeing said i clearely state that unlike GTVI who are more or less under more rigid chains of command (though i wouldnt bet on it) the SOC can bypass the entire GTVA Command and go directly to the "president" if you want or the chief of staff if they have to and report only to them. Does that make things clear for you?

Also simply because the SOC asks for volunteers doesnt mean it could not recruit its own ppl . For all we know it already has its own ppl. Even Alpha1 is a SOC opperative once he accepted the initial mission. Its just that there would be no point in parading you as and SOC opperative since you would be more or less useless then. Also the voluntering is because they do not want to order someone to go a suicide mission someone that would turn tail and run at the first sign of trouble. They simply ask for those that are insane enough to actualy agree to go on these missions. Im actualy suprised they managed to get a hold of so many dont you?

      Also because Freespace2 says one thing doesn't mean you can't go your own way on some wild fantasy about what the SOC is actually about. Alpha 1 is answerable to Command as an SOC operative. If he kills a civilian transport, Command executes him. That means he below Command. Period. You're not James Bond above and beyond the military and can do whatever the hell you want to keep your cover.
      Like blowfish or whoever said, is Delta Force above the Pentagon? Don't think so.  Canada has a unit Joint Task Force 2, they're also special ops. They're PART OF THE MILITARY BELOW THE NORMAL CHAIN OF COMMAND. What the hell does the President know? Answer only to the president? He's just some politician, he doesn't know crap about the military.
      Do you have any evidence, FROM THE GAME, that supports any of this crap? No, you don't. Meanwhile I've provided plenty of evidence to the contrary. So unless you can refute that, instead of spewing a bunch of meaningless drivel in long winded posts then really don't even bother responding.
       
      Get a hold of how many? 12 pilots?
      Do you know that most parachute companies in World War II were volunteer only? Do you know on D-Day parachute companies landed the night before, held bridges and the like with their only order to hold until relieved? Which means "stay, and fight to the last man until someone else comes and says you can go."
       In Afrika, units such as the Royal Artillery were ordered to stay and fight to the last man too . . . buncha guys with artillery guns surrounded by dozens of german tanks fighting and dying until none of them could fight anymore. Suicide missions are nothing new, and there are plenty of people who will volunteer to go on them if it will make a difference.

 

Offline Droid803

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I recall there being figures of a VSlash doing 2.14x damage over TerSlash. Which means, it should use around 2x the power...
Unless, of course, the VSlash is more efficient (which can push the requirements to about equal)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 08:37:10 pm by Droid803 »
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Offline AlphaOne

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So basicly now you have proof of vasudan beam tech size power requirements the working of the SOC GTVI and GTVA high Command? Crap then i must have been playng a different game up untill now. Oh please feel free to teach us all the source of you valueble intel.

Geez you make my head hurt. Youre worse then....err......im not gonna say it.

For the love of god of course you fracking get executed by GTVA command because you killed a few thousand civilians. And as i recall that was one of the mission whre you actualy had support form the GTVA command. Also how the hell can you conlcude form that the the SOC is loweranked then Command? It just means that SOC operatives are subject to justice (if cought dooing unsactioned killing) just like anyone else. However i do not believe that they are gonna parade such a thing all over the buletin boards or list such a thing in the normal reports. Also did you ever stop and think about the fact that GTVA command might have been informed about the blasted thing by the SOC ?


Man before you start giving me arsecannon facts take the time and step out of the box.


Also regarding beam power req.'s just because a beam cannons does 2.4 times the dammage does not mean it would need 2 times the power. If we go by that logic the the Hattie really should not exist or be a hell of alot bigger. Sure they might have slightly different power req's but nothing that drastical. Perhaps 20 or 30% more power needs?
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Offline blowfish

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Offline blowfish

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This has gotten so crazy I've forgotten who is arguing what point.

 
    Wow AlphaOne, still no evidence. Thank for your continuing OPINION.

Quote
For the love of god of course you fracking get executed by GTVA command because you killed a few thousand civilians.

    So what? You said the SOC doesn't answer to Command, so why would Command execute you? If the SOC wasn't answerable to Command, then the SOC would execute you not GTVA Command. But the fact that Command executes you means that they're the ultimate authority in the matter.

Quote
So basicly now you have proof of vasudan beam tech size power requirements the working of the SOC GTVI and GTVA high Command? Crap then i must have been playng a different game up untill now. Oh please feel free to teach us all the source of you valueble intel.

Geez you make my head hurt.

      Sorry to infuse your head with common sense, I know such things don't react well with some people.
       Let's look at Freespace 2:

Fenris - LtTerSlash
Deimos - TerSlash
Orion - BGreen

       Do you see any trends? The wimpy weapons are on lighter ships, the powerful weapons are on larger ships. Thus, it's safe to say that more powerful weapons are bigger, and require more reactor power, limiting them to larger ships.
        In addition to that we have:

Sobek - 2 VSlash
Deimos - 4 TerSlash

       We know that deadlier weapons are bigger and require more power, so we know that by virtue of its damage the VSlash is bigger and requires more power than the TerSlash. We can also see that with two ships of comparable class, one ship only mounts two beam weapons while the other mounts four. This reinforces the idea that the VSlash is bigger.
       
        So simply put, if you try to stick a VSlash on a Deimos you're going to have to modify the hull. It's common sense.

Quote
Also regarding beam power req.'s just because a beam cannons does 2.4 times the dammage does not mean it would need 2 times the power. If we go by that logic the the Hattie really should not exist or be a hell of alot bigger. Sure they might have slightly different power req's but nothing that drastical. Perhaps 20 or 30% more power needs?

        Um, no, actually it does. In fact, more like it means that a beam cannon which does 2.4 times more damage requires AT LEAST 2.4 times more power. You think power comes for free? You stick in an extra 10% of power into a lightbulb and get an extra 50% of light? Sure, that's possible, except for that little thing called the PHYSICAL LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE. If ANYTHING, the VSlash require much MORE than 2.4 times more power because in general, power is lost in the translation. You can't create something out of nothing, not unless the two weapons do damage in drastically different ways but looks to me like they're both just beam weapons just of different calibres.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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You im just about to lose it here and call you....nevermind....it would be pointless. You give me that crap about OPINION then where the f**k is your god damn evidence? YOUR Common sence? I dont give a sh*t about your common sence. You want common sence then if that is the case the the Hattie should be one giant reactor in order to power its beams. The same for the Sobek which is half as big as the Deimos. Yet by some miracle of the fu***ng pixies it manages to have a impreve arsenal of weapons and beam cannons.


You tell me about how the fact that you get executed by GTVA command means you are answerable to them . Of course you are you blundering masochist since at that particular mission you dont have a reason not to be answerable since it was an unsactioned action by the SOC . For all they care you are a traitor and a mad man who just blew away a few thousand civilians. That fracking transport is under the fracking authority of GTVA Command is THEIR GOD DAMN BLASTED FRACKING PICES OF CRAP SHIP that you toasted and those ppl under the protection of the same fracking Command. Who the hell would want to be screaming at you the god damn shivans?????


Man you just dont get it do you??? Youre COMMON SENCE has proven to be as good as a bottle of milk that has been left out in the sun for 2 weeks in the middle of the desert.

I can not believe you actualy compared a god damn lightbulb with a fracking beam cannon. You are actualy comparing in order to prove your COMMON SENCE  species which have mastered how to travel the galaxy and their tech to a god damn lighbulb???!! Dudeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!


You tell me about the laws of phisics ??? dude you have bombs that can dish out multiple gigatons of dammage . Those very same bombs should not produce any F*****G blast wave you blundering COMMON SENCE man. SPACE HAS NO GASSES FROM WHICH TO RESULT A DAMMNED BLAST WAVE.

most of tech in FS2 does not hold up to the laws of phisics .


Die shivan die!!
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You tell me about the laws of phisics ??? dude you have bombs that can dish out multiple gigatons of dammage . Those very same bombs should not produce any F*****G blast wave you blundering COMMON SENCE man. SPACE HAS NO GASSES FROM WHICH TO RESULT A DAMMNED BLAST WAVE.

most of tech in FS2 does not hold up to the laws of phisics .

    So . . . are you arguing for or against Magic Pixie power?
    Because you seem to be arguing for both sides.




PS - Btw, a beam cannon is like (or is) a LASER. (the LA is "Light Amplification") Which is pretty much like a flashlight which has a lightbulb inside, so . . . it's a good comparison.

     Thanks for coming out.


 

Offline blowfish

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Beam cannons are not lasers.  This has been discussed more times than an0n has posted :rolleyes: (well, not really).