[The E]

Remember the MST3K mantra, guys.

[Woolie Wool]

But if you really want to argue Rule of Cool, here's what I think: Swing-wing fighters are cooler than giant robots, and will always be cooler than giant robots

Can swing-wing fighters stop on a dime and strafe in any direction?  No?  Didn't think so.

Replace the jet engines with a different kind of engine, make the "intake" a forward-facing reverse thruster, add some RCS thrusters, and voila! In fact, my fighters in Wings can do this without turning into a giant robot. Throttle down, hit thrust left, yaw right, and circle strafe to your heart's content. Considering that the VF-1 is capable of operating in space it should be perfectly capable of this.

[Snail]

Replace the jet engines with a different kind of engine, make the "intake" a forward-facing reverse thruster, add some RCS thrusters, and voila! In fact, my fighters in Wings can do this without turning into a giant robot. Throttle down, hit thrust left, yaw right, and circle strafe to your heart's content.

"Easier said than done" mean anything to you?

[SpardaSon21]

Okay.  A giant robot is still a giant robot.  A plane is just a plane, regardless of whether or not is has swing-wings.  A giant robot is automatically cooler simply because it is a Humongous Mecha.

[Stormkeeper]

I re-installed C&C3 and proceeded the install the mod that Shadow reccomended. I don't believe I've ever seen GDI forces put out as much dakka as 8 Wolverines backed up by 6 Goliath APCs stuffed with riflemen squads.

[Colonol Dekker]

An hour and a half of combat PT with my unit.
 
A recruit not even into his second week threw up. He had a yellow curry beforehand. He has a new nickname. I'm aching already. But my cold's gone. . . . . I can still throw a mighty punch it turns out too. We're all drinking now. It's nearly one o clock. I'm having a day off tomorrow I think. . .

[Nuke]

the heading gauge i made graphics for awhile back now works.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I'm going to be really busy over the next week, completing the three school assignments I have. One is due next Monday; the other two are due on Thursday.

[iamzack]

Have a nasty, nasty cold. Woke up this morning and blew my nose a little too hard. Just now regained full hearing in my left ear. Ugh.

[Colonol Dekker]

That is hot. . . . .

[iamzack]

I'm actually pretty chilly. Except my face is burning up.

[Woolie Wool]

Okay.  A giant robot is still a giant robot.  A plane is just a plane, regardless of whether or not is has swing-wings.  A giant robot is automatically cooler simply because it is a Humongous Mecha.

No, they're not, they're actually quite campy and boring. Battletech makes it slightly better because the better mechs there do not look remotely humanoid, but the Battroids are and can practically do kung fu moves (see the fight with Hikaru against Breetai). Stupid. The mecha became a lead weight dragging Macross down the moment it stopped being a parody and decided it could take itself seriously, but the planes were awesome.

[Woolie Wool]

Replace the jet engines with a different kind of engine, make the "intake" a forward-facing reverse thruster, add some RCS thrusters, and voila! In fact, my fighters in Wings can do this without turning into a giant robot. Throttle down, hit thrust left, yaw right, and circle strafe to your heart's content.

"Easier said than done" mean anything to you?

These things are required to make an aircraft operate in space because control surfaces do not work in space. Considering that the VF-1 operates in space, it must be able to do these things. And it's still easier than a humongous mecha.

[NGTM-1R]

No, they're not, they're actually quite campy and boring. Battletech makes it slightly better because the better mechs there do not look remotely humanoid, but the Battroids are and can practically do kung fu moves (see the fight with Hikaru against Breetai). Stupid.

Your reasoning being that they should have less mobility?

They're not subject to biological restrictions and could easily have more freedom of movement than a human, and the control system has long been said to involve a direct neural component and not be purely based on the visible controls, which are for gross operation only.

That was also cited as the reason the first-generation VFs fought in an atmospheric style with banks and the like; it was how their pilots thought about combat, and while wasteful of power, it wasn't like they didn't have an excess of it to spare.

[Woolie Wool]

My reasoning is that they should focus on flying and strip out all the stupid servos, articulated bits, and other crap that adds weight and complexity and reduces performance. If you want an aircraft build an aircraft. If you want an armor unit build an armor unit. If you try for both you get a half-assed vehicle that isn't as good at either--see the M1938 Christie.

Also, humanoid designs fall afoul of the square cube law. The ground pressure is enormous, the legs are under horrendous strain, and the configuration is not suited to something of that size. That it works at all speaks of highly advanced technology that would work even better if it were put into a better design.

And the whole issue is even more irritating in that the VF-1 is absolutely beautiful as a plane.

[blackhole]

My reasoning is that they should focus on flying and strip out all the stupid servos, articulated bits, and other crap that adds weight and complexity and reduces performance. If you want an aircraft build an aircraft. If you want an armor unit build an armor unit. If you try for both you get a half-assed vehicle that isn't as good at either.

What's amazing is that that statement can be applied to most software packages these days.

[NGTM-1R]

My reasoning is that they should focus on flying and strip out all the stupid servos, articulated bits, and other crap that adds weight and complexity and reduces performance. If you want an aircraft build an aircraft. If you want an armor unit build an armor unit. If you try for both you get a half-assed vehicle that isn't as good at either--see the M1938 Christie.

And this reasoning has been answered by what the original VFs were designed to deal with; an orbit-to-surface invasion of Zentradi infantry. They needed the aircraft for the speed of reaction and to be a moving target, and they needed the B mode for a counterforce, and they needed the G mode for rough-field capablity and modicum of ability to field-rearm. For the threat, the design is very rational. They needed one platform that could respond rapidly to an invasion anywhere on Earth, fight Zentradi infantry at close quarters in urban environments, and operate out of minimal or non-existent facilities since an orbital threat could be expected to nullify all fixed airfields and military bases rapidly.

So they didn't just want an aircraft. They didn't just want an armor unit. They actually wanted, and needed, something that could do both, with added minimal-facilities operation. Ability to operate despite significant damage a plus. The VF-1 was that platform.

[Woolie Wool]

Once the Zentraedi have annihilated your military bases and airfields, it's already too late to try any significant resistance with mechanized forces. Variable fighters must be unbelievably complicated, full of unnecessary moving parts that will break (especially under combat conditions) and will eventually require the aircraft to be stripped down and overhauled. It is not a question of if they break down beyond the capabilities of simple field repairs, it is when. Things break, and the more complex they are, the harder they are to fix when they are seriously broken. VFs are absurdly complex. Every single moving part on it is a potential failure. Compared to working on a VF, working on a normal aircraft would be trivial.

Without established military bases and a decent logistical train, your only option is insurgent tactics with (human) infantry wielding small arms and simple devices like small rockets and mines. Essentially you'll be operating at the level of Palestinian or Iraqi militia. Variable fighters are completely useless to such a force; you cannot maintain such costly, complicated, and sophisticated machines. They eventually will get major failures that require overhaul, you will run out of spare parts, you will not have the ability to build more. If the UN government wanted to fight off an invasion of Zentraedi infantry after the sudden and nearly total loss of their military facilities, the obvious choice would be to build man-portable anti-armor weaponry and light artillery like mortars and rockets, and in vast quantities. A thousand men with futuristic AT4s will do far more good than a squadron of variable fighters, they'll be far more mobility and stealth than variable fighters or Zentraedi and be able to use cover that they cannot, and they will cost less and be more feasible to maintain in desperate circumstances.

The variable fighter is a disastrous idea for either conventional or asymmetric warfare. Normal planes and tanks are far more useful for a direct confrontation, and shoulder-fired infantry weapons capable of taking out Zentraedi foot soldiers or Regults are far more useful for a guerrilla campaign. Using overtechnology to built fold-capable, fast warships to get enough people for a self-sustaining diaspora somewhere else fast might be a decent option as well, but of course there is the risk of being tracked or slaughtered before the project is completed.

[Colonol Dekker]

Bah.
 
I'd split this but I can't be bothered. If the plane doesn't have a cup-holder I don't wanna know.

[NGTM-1R]

Once the Zentraedi have annihilated your military bases and airfields, it's already too late to try any significant resistance with mechanized forces. Variable fighters must be unbelievably complicated, full of unnecessary moving parts that will break (especially under combat conditions) and will eventually require the aircraft to be stripped down and overhauled. It is not a question of if they break down beyond the capabilities of simple field repairs, it is when. Things break, and the more complex they are, the harder they are to fix when they are seriously broken. VFs are absurdly complex. Every single moving part on it is a potential failure. Compared to working on a VF, working on a normal aircraft would be trivial.

Without established military bases and a decent logistical train, your only option is insurgent tactics with (human) infantry wielding small arms and simple devices like small rockets and mines. Essentially you'll be operating at the level of Palestinian or Iraqi militia. Variable fighters are completely useless to such a force; you cannot maintain such costly, complicated, and sophisticated machines. They eventually will get major failures that require overhaul, you will run out of spare parts, you will not have the ability to build more. If the UN government wanted to fight off an invasion of Zentraedi infantry after the sudden and nearly total loss of their military facilities, the obvious choice would be to build man-portable anti-armor weaponry and light artillery like mortars and rockets, and in vast quantities. A thousand men with futuristic AT4s will do far more good than a squadron of variable fighters, they'll be far more mobility and stealth than variable fighters or Zentraedi and be able to use cover that they cannot, and they will cost less and be more feasible to maintain in desperate circumstances.

The variable fighter is a disastrous idea for either conventional or asymmetric warfare. Normal planes and tanks are far more useful for a direct confrontation, and shoulder-fired infantry weapons capable of taking out Zentraedi foot soldiers or Regults are far more useful for a guerrilla campaign. Using overtechnology to built fold-capable, fast warships to get enough people for a self-sustaining diaspora somewhere else fast might be a decent option as well, but of course there is the risk of being tracked.

This assumption doesn't hold water at the scale we're talking about. On a small-country-scale, sure, yeah. But a whole planet? That's an impossibly huge area to secure in the sense you're talking about. Given that you would probably have some level of warning of approaching spacecraft, being able to disperse into the countryside is possible; or having pre-planned dispersal sites that are camoflagued ready and waiting. The main point here however is that you will need mobility, lots of it. Aircraft are ultimately tied to their runways, and runways are impossible to disguise. Tanks are significantly more concealable, but don't have a hope in hell of sidestepping an orbital bombardment, could not escape aerial pursuit, and their operational radius means an armored unit would quickly be discovered. Men on foot are even less mobile and run the risk that an invading force will simply bombard areas of heavy resistence; these are aliens after all, pyschological worst case must be assumed in lieu of any evidence. A VF-1 in G mode can land anywhere and assist with rearming itself and other VF-1s to boot, while its F mode gives it the mobility to escape aerial pursuit and also to strike anywhere, at any time, and cares not for the terrain it crosses, making locating their base by simple geographic time-and-distance studies much harder.

Also recall that the aircraft carriers which would later form the SDF-1's arms were submersible, which was how they were so easily adapted to space operations. That gives you three quarters of the surface of the planet to hide under and sophisicated repair and basing facilities. Zero gives considerable precedent with the submarine carrier that the Anti-UN forces used to launch their variable fighters.

It's also been established that this is not BattleTech or even early UC Gundam. No manportable weapon that was available at the same time as the VF-1 or for decades afterward is capable of taking out a Regult, or even inflicting significant damage on one in lieu of a definitive destruction. Even if it was a bad option, it was the only option.