[Scuddie]

As for Nazi-Israel claims, they're completely ridiculous.

While Israel isn't currently an autocracy (which is what Nazi, Germany was REALLY about) nor a drive for genocide (which Nazi, Germany wasn't as much), they do appear to be going in that general direction.  I wouldn't be surprised if they turned into genocidal autocrats within the next 10 years or so, based on the actions and escalations from the previous generation till now.

[Flipside]

I think part of the problem is that the animosity has become more habit than anything else, they kill each other because that is what Palestinians and Jews do in Israel.

It's the same old circle, 'we attack them because they attack us', problem is, that argument could be applied to both sides.

Edit: Personally, I see developing a Peace in the Middle East as similar to developing Microsoft Windows, every problem you patch seems to create an opening for two more.

[Sandwich]

We do now it's not going to stop, at least not now. It'd make much more sense to prevent Israel from exaggerating with its attacks. Obviously, both sides should stop killing people...but it's much more doable for the UN or another important authority to stop or relent Israel's exaggerate counterattacks.

It's disturbing but Axem's correct.  It's no secret how the IDF is going to respond to attacks, so when Hamas launches a rocket out of some schoolyard they know exactly what will happen in the end.  It's bad enough Israel is is killing innocents when it strikes back but the fact that Hamas is purposely sacrificing its own civilians is even more so.

The only thing that would stop that, of course, would be collateral damage to my friends and sacred sites, so I'd have to think hard.

then you'd think 'Tel Aviv'

You forget/are unaware of the population of Jaffa, which has a high percentage of Arabs.

You have to remember that Israel are responsible for Hamas being in control in the first place.

Oh, right - us Israelis elected a terrorist organization into government. Oh, no, wait - that was the Palestinians who voted that way.

Honestly, one can't blame them - from a certain point of view: Arafat and the PLO were corrupt... hoarding finances for themselves that were meant to help the population. Meanwhile, Hamas was doing such things as giving away relative fortunes to families of suicide bombers as "compensation", running hate-propaganda filled schools, and fighting against the "Zionist regime". It was a no-brainer which way to vote, really.

Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them "an organization whose stated goal was the liberation of it's people and it's country by targeting military infrastructure "

What military infrastructure are they targeting in the towns and cities of Sderot, Ashqelon, and Be'er Sheva?

I've never seen a single Israeli claim that killing IDF members is legitimate. Are you going to tell me it is?

Is that an intentional lie or merely something you've accidentally forgotten? I told you exactly that, two and a half years ago:

Why do you think it's called "terrorism", anyway? A soldier knows that (all other things being equal) he is a soldier, and his life is on the line in the defense of his country. Grandma Gertrude and her 3-year-old granddaughter Sheniquah aren't soldiers that just happen to be out of uniform, lounging around eating pizza in town.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: if the Palestinians targeted Israel's military forces and not Israel's civillian population, I would have no moral problem with that at all... and I say that as one of those who puts on that uniform and makes himself a valid target once a year.

congratulations splinter you can copy and paste and quote

Ooh. Meaningful post there.

At least Splinter is trying to contribute by using external sources. Are you really really enjoying your attempt to make fun of that?

[Scuddie]

I don't know which one to say...

"WTF?  Sandwich posting in a thread concerning IDF?  He should know better!"

or

"Splinter alt spotted!"


I'm leaning toward the first option, considering you usually know well enough to stay as far away from the debacle as possible.

[NGTM-1R]

I have difficulty summoning pity for the Palestinians as whole, considering they self-determined their way into this situation. Yes, they had crappy options, but frankly this was obviously going to be crappier in the long run and they knew it. To reap the whirlwind is not surprising.

[Flipside]

The thing is, no matter what way you look at it, Hamas, in its current form, might represent all the anger and frustration of the Palestinian people, but that doesn't mean that it is a good idea to put them in charge, much as, was often quoted post 9/11 by anti-American protesters, we put the people in power who did the damage to the Middle East, therefore we are just as responsible as them, if they want to play by those rules, then it works in both directions.

The real tragedy of it all is those who get caught in-between.

[karajorma]

Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them "an organization whose stated goal was the liberation of it's people and it's country by targeting military infrastructure "

What military infrastructure are they targeting in the towns and cities of Sderot, Ashqelon, and Be'er Sheva?

They aren't. My point is that they are still referred to as terrorists when they attack military targets. And anyone in Israeli prison who only attacked military targets is surely a POW not a criminal then.

Why do you think it's called "terrorism", anyway? A soldier knows that (all other things being equal) he is a soldier, and his life is on the line in the defense of his country. Grandma Gertrude and her 3-year-old granddaughter Sheniquah aren't soldiers that just happen to be out of uniform, lounging around eating pizza in town.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: if the Palestinians targeted Israel's military forces and not Israel's civillian population, I would have no moral problem with that at all... and I say that as one of those who puts on that uniform and makes himself a valid target once a year.

Fair enough.

[Splinter]

Hey, when something says eternal and forever a few dozen times and then they continue throught history to do exactly what they said they would I tend to believe them. It's 20 years ago but today they are still doing the exact same thing they were 20 years ago. Preaching and practicing the death of Israel.

Yet I see people from Israel saying similar stuff about how the lands taken in 1967 eternally and forever belong to Israel.

And Israel is still doing much the same thing, consolidating it's hold on the occupied terratories. Yet you expect me to believe Israel wants to give them back and have peace?

Yeah the religious parties and the settlers... almost the entire rest of the country could care less about the West bank and Gaza and would love nothing more than to give it back if it meant peace but they won't agree to it being given back if it will not cease the violence. 

If you are walking down the street and someone starts shooting at you yelling for you to give him your wallet so you agree and then he STOPS shooting so you can get up and give it to him without getting shot. If he keeps shooting you are going to continue to hunker down and protect yourself. Because he is either an insane man that doesn't realize you won't stand up and hand him something while being shot at or he is a man that wants you dead so he can take everything but he claims to be robbing you because if he's caught he wants to be charged with armed robbery and not attempted murder.

So why should I trust them when they tell me that they have changed. How about they change and then we'll talk.

I've said numerous times before that it's a real pity that they don't take a leaf out of Ghandi's book and go for non-violent resistance instead. They'd probably have had more luck that way cause even the States couldn't turn a blind eye to them then.

I agree %100

But don't you see that's exactly what Israel did and we all thought it would work exactly like you said. I will pose the question to you like I did the other guy. Do you agree that a withdrawal to 1967 borders would take time and that there is always a first step?

How is withdrawing all your settlers and then closing the borders while building new settlements in the West Bank a first step? Let's face it. Israel didn't particularly want the Gaza Strip. It's more trouble than it's worth to keep it. The West Bank is what they want and there are no plans on the table to give that back at all.

Believe me hardship in maintaining an area has never been a setback for Israel. The Gaza strip was very important to many people and the only reason people wanted to get rid of it was because they believed it was the first step to peace. And there were and ARE plans to give back the west bank and the only reason they were not put into effect was because we realized what a debacle handing back the Gaza strip was. Fool me once shame on you... fool me twice shame on me.

Don't you think that by showing a little good will and taking that first step Israel should have been met with an equal first step of ending hostilities against it instead of an increase?

You really think giving back the West Bank was a measure of good will? From Ariel Sharon? After he campaigned against doing it?

I don't remember what he campaigned for and I couldn't care less. What does it matter what he campaigned for. What did Israel do? They gave it back. So yeah I would say that was a big measure and a big first step.

Hey When the Palestinians have their own state they can let whoever they want into it. But until then why would Israel do about the dumbest thing it could possibly do and allow hundreds of thousands of refugees back into the West Bank and Gaza so that you can have even more hopelessly fanatical people who want to kill you in one place?

Ah. So it's okay to dispossess people and steal their land because....?

Nope, sorry I can't see how you hope  to justify that one.

I don't understand how you got that from what I said.

They did have their own state. They got kicked off their land or left to avoid the war and now Israel holds that land and refuses to allow anyone who left during the war to come back in because they are worried about the Muslims having a majority.

I don't buy that as a response from people who "just want to live in peace" I don't believe that it is only on security grounds that you refuse them. It's more about the fact that Israel would cease to be a Jewish state if the right to return was allowed. A completely hypocritical position considering that Israel only exists in the first place due to the same right and then Israel continues to encourage Jews to return to a homeland which they haven't been a part of for 2000 years while denying the right to Muslims who were born there or are direct descendants of those who left in 1948.

Remember that the talks between Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak broke down on this very issue.

The Palestinians never had a state because they were never a real group of people. Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here's what he said:

Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.

Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

And doesn't the right of return mean these people want to return to the West Bank and Gaza? Since the rest is pre1967 Israel. Well then they can do that. As soon as the West Bank and Gaza are a defined country with their own army and their own borders and passports and they can sustain themselves without depending on Israel.

What? The Spanish? What in the... lol

Descended from the Carthaginians who themselves are descended from the Phoencians who are related to the Canaanites.

So therefore they have a blood claim that predates the Jews.

Stupid, yes. But no more stupid than the Jews claiming they have a right to it.

A right to what? To Israel at all or to the West Bank and Gaza? do you believe that Israel has the right to exist as a nation at all? (serious question)

I don't know which one to say...

"WTF?  Sandwich posting in a thread concerning IDF?  He should know better!"

or

"Splinter alt spotted!"

A what? You think me and my brother are the same person? We don't even look alike.

(at least I don't think so.)

Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them "an organization whose stated goal was the liberation of it's people and it's country by targeting military infrastructure "

What military infrastructure are they targeting in the towns and cities of Sderot, Ashqelon, and Be'er Sheva?

They aren't. My point is that they are still referred to as terrorists when they attack military targets. And anyone in Israeli prison who only attacked military targets is surely a POW not a criminal then.

They are Referred to as terrorists because they attack Military targets in addition to attacking the civilians. They attack military targets only when those targets are in the way of getting to the civilians. And If you were to drive to the border of your country and attack a soldier I am sure they would imprison you too.

[Sandwich]

I don't know which one to say...

"WTF?  Sandwich posting in a thread concerning IDF?  He should know better!"

or

"Splinter alt spotted!"


I'm leaning toward the first option, considering you usually know well enough to stay as far away from the debacle as possible.

Considering that I am often literally involved in the "debacle" on the ground as well as on HLP, your statement confuses me.

And that's my brother, all right. I bet he forgot his login and registered a new one. He typ(o)es just like my brother. Good points, though.

They aren't. My point is that they are still referred to as terrorists when they attack military targets. And anyone in Israeli prison who only attacked military targets is surely a POW not a criminal then.

When have they only attacked military targets? If you're thinking of when suicide bombers explode at checkpoints, that's like saying that blowing up a public bus is attacking the bus company, not the civilians in the bus; that ramming a plane into a building is attacking the building's managing company, not the employees working there, or that ramming a jeep into the front gate of Glasgow airport is an attack on the airline company, not the people traveling by plane that day. Aside from when the IDF is sent to deal with terrorists who were already causing trouble, and thus ended up getting attacked, or when the IDF spots an armed Palestinian attempting to sneak into somewhere he shouldn't be and tries to stop him, I cannot think of a single instance when a military location was the target.

FYI, a significant percentage (I don't know any exact statistics so I'm not going to make any up; I just know that it is a significant percentage) of the Palestinian prisoners were arrested for aiding terrorists (their operators, equippers, etc), suicide bombers that got caught pre-boom, terrorists who had been shooting at passing vehicles on a highway, or those who were lobbing mortars / rockets into towns and cities.

[Splinter]

And that's my brother, all right. I bet he forgot his login and registered a new one. He typ(o)es just like my brother. Good points, though.

What gives you that idea? I logged into the same account I have had for like 5 years or however long it's been. And why the heck is my post count stuck on 1?

suicide bombers that got caught pre-boom,

Pre-boom 

[General Battuta]

I have to say that I admire Karajorma, Splinter, and Sandwich's ability to carry on a pretty heated debate without leaning too far towards personal attacks.

[vyper]

The Israeli government is doing some crowd pleasing, and giving the Palestinians something to fear a repeat of next time (if) they a) go to the ballot boxes, and b) they consider walking away from negotiations (or not compromising).

Also bear in mind they probably consider President Elect Obama an unknown quantity, and thus don't know whether the USA would support them if they did this later in the year.

[Niv]

Here's an honest question: how well can Hamas(/Islamic Jihad/etc) aim those rockets? Granted, they have a lot of practice, but from what I've seen and heard (not in person, granted), they seem pretty primitive. Are they actually targeting schools etc with them, or are they just aiming at populated areas? Not saying this excuses them, of course, but I wonder. Also, Israel's most recent air raids have targeted universities, claiming they are used to manufacture and store weapons and ammunition. Is there any evidence for this either way?

I've heard suggestions that both Israel and Hamas intend to return to a ceasefire, but not until getting something from the other side. To the best of my knowledge, Islamic Jihad continued firing rockets during the ceasefire, and so I would presume Israel wants to stop that. Gaza has remained in crushing poverty due to the blockade (it would seem that Israel thinks they are besieging a castle and can starve their enemy out), and Hamas wants that lifted. Thoughts from the more informed? How well did the ceasefire work?

Oh, and does anyone know of an English translation of the July ceasefire terms? All Google gives me is '[they] broke it lawl'. The Israeli government site and al-Jazeera don't seem to have it, and Hamas doesn't seem to have an English site.

[Black Wolf]

The blockade, IMO, is one of the cruelest things a so-called civilized nation has done since World War 2. There have been nasty things done by individual soldiers in wars since then, and there've been some damned dodgy stuff done recently (The US's torture of terror suspects springs to mind) but nothing else I can think of has caused so much pain to so many people for so little gain .

[Mobius]

Here's an honest question: how well can Hamas(/Islamic Jihad/etc) aim those rockets? Granted, they have a lot of practice, but from what I've seen and heard (not in person, granted), they seem pretty primitive. Are they actually targeting schools etc with them, or are they just aiming at populated areas? Not saying this excuses them, of course, but I wonder. Also, Israel's most recent air raids have targeted universities, claiming they are used to manufacture and store weapons and ammunition. Is there any evidence for this either way?

The fact that these rockets killed "only" four people suggests that they're simply intended to be launched on populated areas, hoping to inflict severe damage. Many hundreds of them have been launched and their poor achievements should be considered a valuable proof. They would have inflicted much more damaged had they been implemented with high-tech guidance components.

[Mika]

The fact that these rockets killed "only" four people suggests that they're simply intended to be launched on populated areas, hoping to inflict severe damage. Many hundreds of them have been launched and their poor achievements should be considered a valuable proof. They would have inflicted much more damaged had they been implemented with high-tech guidance components.

The other explanation is that they don't know how to actually aim them. One of the FDF officers told some stories about this, he mentioned that the boldest ones attempted to destroy a legitimate Israeli military target with some anti-tank missiles or rockets, I can't remember. In the aftermaths of the failed attempt (there were more regrettable aftermaths also), Palestinians threatened to kill him - which, in the hindsight, seemed to be a signal for him that he was doing something right.

Crazy stuff down there in the South. The worst enemy I have is the -20 degree frost at the moment.

Mika

[NGTM-1R]

Here's an honest question: how well can Hamas(/Islamic Jihad/etc) aim those rockets? Granted, they have a lot of practice, but from what I've seen and heard (not in person, granted), they seem pretty primitive. Are they actually targeting schools etc with them, or are they just aiming at populated areas?

They are, mostly, free-flight artillery rockets of WW2 or 50's vintage design, somewhat updated. The weapons were probably manufactured within the last ten years, but I'm not sure even Hamas knows this for sure. To some extent, they are not meant to fly entirely in a straight line, but to disperse somewhat because that is a useful thing for their original application. Still, they should be good for an error radius of something like a hundred meters from the aim point at absolute worst.

That sounds like a large number, but in functional terms it really isn't. A hundred meters is about the campus size of a large school, and it represents the worst-case scenario; most of the time I would imagine the error is down to twenty-five meters. They are not complicated weapons and do not require very much, if any, skill to operate.

I would assume that Hamas is most probably hitting what they mean to at least fifty percent of the time. Their lethality failure can be attributed to the fact that are using extended-range versions of the rocket with small warheads, and that the fuzing mechanism for the rockets has no delay. They go off on impact with any roof or wall, outside the building, where the majority of its explosive force is wasted.

[Akalabeth Angel]

The million dollar question is...what should Israel do?  They did try unsuccessfully for another cease fire agreement and it seems like Hamas just keeps firing rockets into Israel.  They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Take action, take inaction, try and negotiate....seems like these are all non starters.

      Question is why is Hamas attacking Israel in the first place? If people don't examine the motives behind a group of individuals how can either side ever come to a solution? Same with 9/11, people asked "who did it? Where as they? What did they do" etcetera but no one asked "why did they do it?".

      And considering Obama firmly planted himself on the side of Israel when pre-election he stood in some town and declared US's solidarity with Israel re: the rocket attacks I doubt that Obama is going to broker any deal for the benefit of the palestinians. Maybe the french can do something as it seems the Israelis are over there talking with them.

[vyper]

Israel was given to the Jewish people because Europe was tired of having them. And so, in keeping with early 20th century European SNAFU, they dumped their problem on the Middle East.

Actually the Jewish action groups of the time wanted it, and in the process of getting it blew up British troops and even a British Member of Parliament in a terror campaign.

But of course none of this is about right and wrong; It's about winning or losing. That's all it's ever been about. The Zionist bull****, the Islamic Jihad noise... it's all just there to keep The People (TM) fighting and dying like good little proles.

And the way you lot argue about it (with notable exceptions) says you've all bought into it.

[TrashMan]

The million dollar question is...what should Israel do?  They did try unsuccessfully for another cease fire agreement and it seems like Hamas just keeps firing rockets into Israel.  They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Take action, take inaction, try and negotiate....seems like these are all non starters.

Go back to the borders when Israel was first established. I bet that would help A LOT.

Let's face it - when Israel was just created, it had no legitimate reason or right to exist. Palestinians would have been well in their right to rise against it.
BUT, after a generation or two of israelis was born and raised in that new nation, it IS their home. That's all it takes for people to indentify with a nation/place. Just a generation or two.
So, the destruction of the state of Israel is not an option. But neither is for Israel (government and military) to continue to act like utter morons.

Personally, I really don't care who was there first historicly (cause you can ALWAYS go back even further in history to make stupid claims). I just care who lives there now and how he lives there.

MEh..I bet Nuke would just say - nuke em all! Then there will be peace. No man, no problem.
These days I find myself moving ever closer to his POW.