[Wanderer]

I have to challenge assertion A. It's well within the capablities of the IDF, and most modern militaries, to put fire on an enemy artillery posistion within five minutes of its actually firing. Counterbattery radar can generally determine an inbound rocket or round's point of origin before it actually lands, and a couple of minutes later your own guns are firing on that point. There is very good reason Hamas has learned to flee the scene; within the next five minutes it could be ground zero for an artillery barrage. At least some of the time in that situation you're not going to make it out. If you do escape, you probably had to abandon your weapon and it was destroyed by the return fire.

Perhaps more importantly, the retaliatory fire serves the purpose of ensuring these posistions are never going to fire more than a couple of times, which reduces them to irrevelancy. Weapons of the sort being employed by Hamas have to be used in large barrages to be effective; Israel is ensuring that they never will be.

So no, not pointless. Harsh, certainly, but unfortunately quite logical.

Perhaps... Well it is certainly true that the harassing fire of IDF forces Hamas to spread out and fire only short bursts at a time. However having actually used mortars in the army i can say that should some of the safety protocols be ignored (and the with even lightly trained crew) they can fire the weapon couple of times and bolt with the weapon in way less than a minute. And if they wont bother recovering the launcher there is no way they would be present longer than (about - assuming two shots) ten seconds after the first shot is fired.

[ssmit132]

They had protests in Brisbane because of Israel declining to accept the cease-fire.

[TrashMan]

This just in - IDF to be charged for war crimes.
Apparently IDF soldiers brought a hundered Palestinians inside a house and bombed it later several times. 30 were killed and many wounded...

This just keeps getting messier.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Not to mention crazier.

I used to sympathise with the Israelis, but now I sympathise with all the civilians on both sides.

[General Battuta]

This just in - IDF to be charged for war crimes.
Apparently IDF soldiers brought a hundered Palestinians inside a house and bombed it later several times. 30 were killed and many wounded...

This just keeps getting messier.

Who's going to charge them?

[Sandwich]

Perhaps... Well it is certainly true that the harassing fire of IDF forces Hamas to spread out and fire only short bursts at a time. However having actually used mortars in the army i can say that should some of the safety protocols be ignored (and the with even lightly trained crew) they can fire the weapon couple of times and bolt with the weapon in way less than a minute. And if they wont bother recovering the launcher there is no way they would be present longer than (about - assuming two shots) ten seconds after the first shot is fired.

I used mortars in the military, too. The problem with your statement is that mortars (the man-portable ones, at least) are short-range "artillery" - up to 3.5km or so on the larger 60mm variants, and around a kilometer on the 52mm ones - IIRC. Those aren't the kinds of artillery we're talking about here - think Kassams, Grads, etc - dozens of kilometers of range.

[TrashMan]

I'm kinda surprised this thread died out so fast....

[karajorma]

I apologize for being too busy to be controversial.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I'm kinda surprised this thread died out so fast....

I'd rather that it dies out fast. Issues like this just make me feel like sleeping.

[Rick James]

Some white phosphorous ought to make you wake up.

[Splinter]

So in case anyone was following that whole UN school bombing incident Israel released the video showing a rocket launcher in the school yard... But I'm sure it's actually just a giant pencil sharpener.

Funny how everyone believed in an instant that Israel would target civilians for no reason and had such a hard time believing that a terrorist organization would use civilian people and locations as cover. Seriously? Why? Because some U.N. scum said he was 99.9% sure no one was using the school to stage attacks? We have already seen videos of the U.N. helping and covering for the Hamas before why should it be different now? The U.N. in Gaza are on the same scale as Hamas in my book.

[Flipside]

The U.N. in Gaza are on the same scale as Hamas in my book.

[Splinter]

The U.N. in Gaza are on the same scale as Hamas in my book.

Using their influence and connections to help transport protect and cover for terrorists while hiding behind the guise of international aid for the people of Gaza. If someone murders your child *knocks on wood* and then they escape because an international aid organization helped them and they did it again and again and again I would think you would have a healthy disdain for them if not a strong desire to hold them accountable. It's called aiding and abetting and it's quite illegal.

 I will say it again. The U.N. in Gaza are no better than the Hamas. 

[Wanderer]

No one - well, perhaps some very few - really believe that IDF would target civilians for no reason but it seems - at least around here - that IDF is seen as targeting anything regardless of the civilians. Same claim can of course be made of Hamas but that just kinda shows that both sides play dirty and disregard non combatant palestinians.

Its kinda difficult to agree with Israelis claiming to being victims and then getting reports that they are using white phosphorous on or very close to civilians...

[TrashMan]

So in case anyone was following that whole UN school bombing incident Israel released the video showing a rocket launcher in the school yard... But I'm sure it's actually just a giant pencil sharpener.

Funny how everyone believed in an instant that Israel would target civilians for no reason and had such a hard time believing that a terrorist organization would use civilian people and locations as cover. Seriously? Why? Because some U.N. scum said he was 99.9% sure no one was using the school to stage attacks? We have already seen videos of the U.N. helping and covering for the Hamas before why should it be different now? The U.N. in Gaza are on the same scale as Hamas in my book.

I don't see anything on that video. It's fat too blurry and. the "rocket launcher" is behind the tree the whole time.
Heck, I couldn't even tell you where that video was taken (what building, what town)

Really, I'm not believing anyone without some GOOD, hard evidence.

And you equate UN with terrorists and are then appauled when someone equates the IDF with terrorists? It's all a matter of perspective I guess, but justifications and broken logic can be used to justify or attack anyone or anything..

[Uchuujinsan]

So in case anyone was following that whole UN school bombing incident Israel released the video showing a rocket launcher in the school yard... But I'm sure it's actually just a giant pencil sharpener.

I dont seem to find any information that this was a schoolyard of an UN school, care to help me?
Iirc also the building of the UN school was attacked, not the school yard. If there would have been such a precision strike on mortars or rocket launchers, it shouldnt have had such victims.

Funny how everyone believed in an instant that Israel would target civilians for no reason and had such a hard time believing that a terrorist organization would use civilian people and locations as cover. Seriously? Why? Because some U.N. scum said he was 99.9% sure no one was using the school to stage attacks? We have already seen videos of the U.N. helping and covering for the Hamas before why should it be different now? The U.N. in Gaza are on the same scale as Hamas in my book.

Certainly few people (and probably no one on HLP) think that Israel attacked the school just for fun, its more about not caring if it would even hit the right ones. It was fired because there might be some hamas fighters hidden, the following explanations and justifications from the Israeli side only further that impression: Civilians may be killed if there might be the chance that justified targets are also hit. In contrast to what was said earlier in this thread the Israeli military doesnt put that much effort into not hurting someone innocent. That would probably endanger their soldiers, and a sad but simple rule of PR is that 100 dead enemy civlians arent as bad as less than ten own soldiers. Sadly, it's not that different in Iraq and Afghanistan after all.
Also, that UN scum you talk about is the closest to independent information we - and you - will get from this war.
Not only the Hamas reports of the area are filled with - and full of - propaganda, the Israeli reports are as well. The situation might be far better if we could have our own journalists over there, but despite a decision of the Israeli (!) supreme court this is still not possible. (Latest info I got that some journalists may go embedded with the IDF, however the military got a veto right against who might be nominated... anything up to date..? )
So the Israeli military and politicians were and are certainly and definitely exercising information control, and as a result I have to distrust any Israeli information. Note that the Videos from "idfnadesk" all have their comments section disabled.
Silencing critical voices isnt very democratic you know...

[Splinter]

regardless of the civilians.

I can understand why you and others would see it that way. I find this very often with many people from everywhere in the world and it's no one persons fault. People just seem to forget that no matter what they see hear or read there is always more to it. I don't trust the media especially after being in Lebanon war 2006 and seeing with my own eyes something and then hearing the media say something diffrent again and again and again. That's why I don't get into discussions about other places either, because I haven't been there and I don't know first hand. You couldn't have paid me to get involved in a discussion about the Russia Georgia conflict or the US Iraq/Afghanistan conflict because the only information I get is what other people have read heard and seen. Why should I believe them? Why should you believe me? Well I think you should but that hardly is a convincing argument. It's better just to see things for yourselves then come to your own conclusions.

Now, I am assuming that you have never been to Israel or if you have it was under very diffrent circumstances. I am also assuming you have never been in the military or if you have then you didn't get to see combat. Correct me if I'm wrong this is simply the case with most the people I talk to. That's why most the military people you can ask if Israel is disregarding civilians will tell you of course not. and you may ask well why is the civilian death toll so high? the answer is this is war not art. this is life not a fairy tale or a hollywood shoot em' up where people curve bullets and such. And Sh*t happens even to good people. To quote Golda Meir "When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons." Anyway, here is Israel regarding some of the civilians.

I don't see anything on that video. It's fat too blurry and. the "rocket launcher" is behind the tree the whole time.
Heck, I couldn't even tell you where that video was taken (what building, what town)

oh wow... Maybe to avoid international reprise Israel went to some building and recreated a scene where they blow up something that looks like a rocket launcher. I guess if that were the case why should any of the videos that we saw so far in this thread be real?

Your suspicion knows no bounds but considering everything I actually can't blame you. I just hope it flows both ways.

Heres a zoo and school wired to blow (unless of course this is also staged or the soldiers planted these bombs right?)

And you equate UN with terrorists and are then appalled when someone equates the IDF with terrorists? It's all a matter of perspective I guess, but justifications and broken logic can be used to justify or attack anyone or anything..

Big difference I wasn't calling the UN in Gaza terrorists I said they were no better than and they were on the same scale BECUASE they were helping an internationally identified terrorist organization. If you or anyone else wants to compare the IDF to terrorists thats a whole other story and you have every right to do so however I would be appalled considering what I know first hand about them and considering your only basis for those claims would be based on other peoples observations since I assume (yeah I did it again but 95% it's the case) you have never been in Israel and been with the IDF in action.

In 2004 Peter Hansen, Commissioner General of UNRWA, admitted, "I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime." from globalsecurity.org

I don't seem to find any information that this was a schoolyard of an UN school, care to help me?
Iirc also the building of the UN school was attacked, not the school yard. If there would have been such a precision strike on mortars or rocket launchers, it shouldnt have had such victims.

Aside from the UN saying we hit a schoolyard?

I think you are refferring to the other school that was hit. There was a mortar group shooting from the other school and a tank fired and missed and they ran away. They claimed there too that there was no terrorists but AP received two separate phone calls from Palestinians who wished to remain anonymous saying they saw the mortar team fire from the school. It's just sad that the tank missed I really do think it's tragic that 30 people paid the price for some cowardly terrorists using them as cover.

Certainly few people (and probably no one on HLP) think that Israel attacked the school just for fun, its more about not caring if it would even hit the right ones. It was fired because there might be some Hamas fighters hidden, the following explanations and justifications from the Israeli side only further that impression: Civilians may be killed if there might be the chance that justified targets are also hit. In contrast to what was said earlier in this thread the Israeli military doesn't put that much effort into not hurting someone innocent. That would probably endanger their soldiers, and a sad but simple rule of PR is that 100 dead enemy civilians aren't as bad as less than ten own soldiers. Sadly, it's not that different in Iraq and Afghanistan after all.

This is basically what I addressed earlier in this post.

Also, that UN scum you talk about is the closest to independent information we - and you - will get from this war.
Not only the Hamas reports of the area are filled with - and full of - propaganda, the Israeli reports are as well.

I have shown time and time again how 'independent" the UN in Gaza is in this whole situation. (notice every time I say UN in Gaza because I know not all UN is like that of course)

The situation might be far better if we could have our own journalists over there, but despite a decision of the Israeli (!) supreme court this is still not possible. (Latest info I got that some journalists may go embedded with the IDF, however the military got a veto right against who might be nominated... anything up to date..? )
So the Israeli military and politicians were and are certainly and definitely exercising information control, and as a result I have to distrust any Israeli information. Note that the Videos from "idfnadesk" all have their comments section disabled.
Silencing critical voices isnt very democratic you know...

And there is a simple reason for that. first let me say that the supreme court rules that we let 4 BBC journalists in on an imbed. Now, the reason we don't let any journalists just come and go as they please like we did in the past is because we learned from Hezbollah in 2006 that they were able to study and prepare and attack more effectively because they watched the news and could see what type of tactics people and equipment was being deployed against them. In fact Israel even blocked Fox News from entering because it's not about right or left wingers going in its about the safety of the troops.

[Flipside]

The U.N. in Gaza are on the same scale as Hamas in my book.

Using their influence and connections to help transport protect and cover for terrorists while hiding behind the guise of international aid for the people of Gaza. If someone murders your child *knocks on wood* and then they escape because an international aid organization helped them and they did it again and again and again I would think you would have a healthy disdain for them if not a strong desire to hold them accountable. It's called aiding and abetting and it's quite illegal.

 I will say it again. The U.N. in Gaza are no better than the Hamas. 

Hamas rocket attacks have killed less than half a dozen Israelis, and I seem to recall much the same thing being said about 5th Columnists for protecting the Jews. What the UN are trying to do is minimise casualties, they aren't perfect, they just don't neccesarily agree that killing several citizens who may not even have a say in the matter, purely to kill one Terrorist is neccesarily a fair trade.

Now, whilst I'll admit the UN has a habit of 'act first, think later', I think blanket assumptions like 'The UN troops in Gaza are no better than the Hamas' are the kind of statement to led to all the sectarian violence there in the first place, all Palestinians are no better than Terrorists, all UN Troops are no better than Terrorists, you dilute the word to the point where it no longer has any relevant meaning, anyone who does something you don't like it 'no better than Terrorists'.

[Splinter]

Hamas rocket attacks have killed less than half a dozen Israelis, and I seem to recall much the same thing being said about 5th Columnists for protecting the Jews. What the UN are trying to do is minimise casualties, they aren't perfect, they just don't necessarily agree that killing several citizens who may not even have a say in the matter, purely to kill one Terrorist is necessarily a fair trade.

Where did you get that number? you mean since the start of the Gaza Op? Minimise casualties by making them and their facilities legitimate targets for protecting and helping terrorists? I think not. What most people forget about the UN in Gaza is that aside from upper management most the workers ARE Gazans. Some of them really have no problem using their connections to help Hamas. It's not like you have a bunch of Sweeds driving a UN ambulance packed with gunmen.

Now, whilst I'll admit the UN has a habit of 'act first, think later', I think blanket assumptions like 'The UN troops in Gaza are no better than the Hamas' are the kind of statement to led to all the sectarian violence there in the first place, all Palestinians are no better than Terrorists, all UN Troops are no better than Terrorists, you dilute the word to the point where it no longer has any relevant meaning, anyone who does something you don't like it 'no better than Terrorists'.

There are no UN troops in Gaza. That aside you are completely missed my point if you think that's how I label everyone. Why would I label all Palestinians as no better than terrorists? Do they all support Hamas and want to eradicate all Jews in the name of Islam? No, of course not. We hear many of them saying all we want is peace etc etc. I gave that label specifically to the UN in Gaza because they facilitate the Hamas. That's it.

[Flipside]

They are working as a relief organisation, their job is to provide relief, sometimes insurgents take advantage, should that mean that the UN should just pull out and let everyone suffer instead? If they were 'as bad as Hamas', they'd be attacking Israel.

This whole 'X are as bad as Y' situation is getting ridiculous, it's like Godwins law all over again.