[Vidmaster]

Woke up, ate breakfast, logged on.
Holy crap. Now this got out of control. And I fail to see the wisdom behind IP's refusal because a mod could break whatever it wants, nobody would have to play it since we have a working game. I would see it as a chance, an alternative. And you (and me) could still develop for good old 3.6.9.
If sb gave me a perfectly working update out of nowhere, I'd see no problem using it. And as unlikely that may be, according to IP, nothing would be harmed with somebody (whoever) started working on one in some internal group or forum. You all could still play standart 3.6.9.

However, I am not Asprin. If IP refuses his permission to work with what's his work to a large degree, I won't ignore such a veto.
Simply because I wouldn't want anybody ignoring a veto of my own for something I made.

So that's it. I don't like it. It may have consequences in the future.
But as long as IP doesn't change his mind, I can't even do something  .

[Flipside]

Quite frankly, I'm more than convinced that no matter what I had suggested, or how I had suggested it, IP would have ended up denying his official position.

As was stated before, this has become about ego now, not common sense.

[Fury]

But as long as IP doesn't change his mind, I can't even do something  .

Why is that anyway? IP has not been officially a project leader for quite some time. As a matter of fact, it is you and FUBAR who currently are. Is that title for show only?
Denying permission to use TBP material for a different project is not same as denying permission to produce compatibility and bugfix patches to TBP. The two are completely different situations.

I agree that for now TBP needs a stable platform to produce missions and campaigns on, since that's what TBP needs now. But there is nothing wrong with fixing bugs and maintaining compatibility with fs2_open and FS2NetD. It is not SCP's responsibility to make their code work around issues that are caused by bugs in TBP data.

I'm sure we all agree that IP has done stellar job so far in bringing TBP to where it is now. It is also clear that he has no intention to work on TBP anymore which is perfectly understandable. But I don't understand why he won't let others to work on it. To be honest, personally I do not even believe he has the authority to prevent others from keeping TBP up-to-date.

[Bobboau]

yeah if that's the case than any of the many dozens of people who have worked on this project could at any time come in and deny use of materials and then you'd be boned because this is the 'final' version and you can't replace them.

just because one or two team members is being a jackass and saying you can't make a bugfix patch doesn't mean you have to listen to said crazed members. I mean I don't recall there ever being a vote on this matter, just IP and Tomcat saying it was the case and everyone else just sort of being ignored when they raised doubts as to the idea.

I know agreeing to following this insane policy was a term to many of the currently active member's acceptance, but the fact is you are the ones in charge now and you have to make the choice on what is the right thing to do.

[Fury]

yeah if that's the case than any of the many dozens of people who have worked on this project could at any time come in and deny use of materials and then you'd be boned

Doing that won't serve the interests of the mod's fanbase and the community at all.

[Bobboau]

which is why I said this position is crazy.

[chief1983]

Ok, it took me longer to get around to posting this than I had intended, but here it is.

What's going to happen if no action is taken by either side:

• TBP 3.4b is finalized, no official updates or enhancements will be released.  TBP works fine with FSO 3.6.9, providing a good user experience. (ok this already happened)
• 3.6.10 is released, FS2NetD for 3.6.9 clients is shut down due to numerous bugs solved in 3.6.10 that could not be backported to just the server for 3.6.9
• TBP users move to 3.6.10 for their multiplayer and FREDing needs
• Many issues are encountered, much to their chagrine
• Some SCP team members still help with TBP related issues out of sympathy to the many users who still wish to carry the torch
• Someone at some point realizes that there are some issues that need to be dealt with and decides to take action
• Patch is created by community to address many of these issues so that TBP can continue to be enjoyed to its fullest extent and retain compatibility with future SCP releases
• Eventually, unofficial patch becomes the de facto standard version (look at the Falcon 4.0 Superpatch pre-Allied Force, and I'm sure you can think of more examples where a community patch has become dominant over the 'official' version)

I'm sorry if you don't agree, but this really is the way things are already going, and the predictions are based on what tends to happen with any software with a large online following like TBP has.  People start to take matters into their own hands.  TBP won't be any different if things continue down the current path.  Some of those items are already in various stages of fulfillment even.

[IPAndrews]

Why has this thread been reopened. I can only assume this is certain SCP team members abusing their admin privileges again. All you people discussing overruling my decision should be ashamed. You are basically talking about theft of my work. All you people talking about overruling the original decision of the TBP team to finalise TBP which I am simply upholding should also be ashamed. You are talking about theft of a team's work. This attitude shows a level of brazen disrespect, arrogance, and megalomania the likes of which I have rarely seen. Even on the internet.

Deal with the decision like honourable adults and stop being so pathetic. If the work the TBP team did, if the work *I* did is not good enough, create your own!. You are behaving like a pack of vultures and petty thieves. The moderators should lock this thread before you demean yourselves any further. Grow up. It's sad to see that Vidmaster is the only person here with the character to accept a decision he doesn't agree with like an adult.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I reopened it.  I only closed it to quell the arguing for a few hours while I got some sleep. 

At this point the arrogance and disrespect seems to be coming from one person around here. 

[IPAndrews]

At this point the arrogance and disrespect seems to be coming from one person around here. 

Well don't be coy?

[Bobboau]

maybe the team is reevaluating it's decision IP just deal with it.

[IPAndrews]

This isn't the team. This is one caretaker moderator of a forum for a dead project whose real team made it's decision to make their game "FINAL" last year and clearly demonstrated their intention by adding the word "FINAL" in big letters to the end of the release name. Not that your opinion interests me in the slightest Bobboau.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Caretaker?  I think you mean lackey.  If we were caretakers we could actually take care of things not just be expected to bend to your will like mindless drones.  The first time we decide to have an open mind about something you pull the plug by denying use of anything that's yours in the project and shutting us down that way. 

Fine take your toys and go home.  Just remember that when you hand someone a loaded gun make sure you know which way it will be pointed in the end. 

[IPAndrews]

Fine take your toys and go home.  Just remember that when you hand someone a loaded gun make sure you know which way it will be pointed in the end. 

Oh so that's what this is about. You feel slighted? You should have stuck to your original promise not to try and revive the project. Thankfully I am the most senior member of the team here and everyone knows it. Though those with less self respect than Vidmaster wish to ignore that for personal gain. What they can't ignore is that so much of TBP Final is my work that I can withdraw my permission to use my work and that means basically You are finished. You want to talk about guns? That's my gun mate. It's a bloody big one.

As I said earlier though, if you want to start up your own brand new Babylon 5 total conversion without my work then feel free. I'd love to see it.

[chief1983]

IPA:

Out of curiosity, on what grounds do you believe to possess such total control over TBP?  Certainly not a legal one I hope.

Also, I just like how this whole time you've been blaming the SCP team for everything and the SCP members who have posted recently in this thread haven't even done anything you've accused everyone else of.  In fact, most of them seem to have TBP badges instead.  This has changed from a disagreement with some SCP members to a disagreement between various TBP staff it would appear.  So please be careful where you direct your rebuttals.

Good lord man, I just read your last message.  What is this about reviving?  You expect TBP multiplayer to just die because no one is allowed to keep it working properly?  After all the work other members have put into it?  FUBAR has not said anything about releasing an official patch or making any changes to the core 3.4b release.  Doesn't that fall within your definition of final?

[IPAndrews]

I don't need to explain my credentials to you Chief. Besides this irrelevant. No permission. No continuation. The team made the decision last year. The team disbanded. Now that decision cannot be disrespected and overturned. Complain all you like but this is over. Good night.

[Bobboau]

I think I was a member of TBP at about the same time as you IPA, if not slightly before, and many of the people talking here are in a similar boat, so I don't think you have that big of a seniority handhold. if this was realy the will of the team, then why isn't there like a dozen rabid TBP people coming to your aid, why is it that you are so alone in this with only one other real supporter that i can think of? now you can ***** and complain and demand all you want, but in the end all you are going to accomplish is vilifying your involvement in this project. you will be seen as the Nero of TBP who wanted to watch it burn and had to be forced from power for the overall good of the project. is that what you want?

now the team might be thinking about rebanding and changing the decision and you as one single member do not have the authority to override them especially seance you seem to be of the opinion that there is no team. complain all you want you will be ignored, have a nice life.

[chief1983]

I'm not asking you to explain yourself to me, I'm trying to help you help everyone else understand.  Now, I don't expect you to really walk away from this, that would mean acknowledging that TBP is in the hands of those who might not fully agree with you.  When a ****storm like this gets kicked up, nobody walks straight out of it smelling like a bed of roses, yours truly included.  Cleaning it off is going to mean that some sort of agreement is reached that doesn't result in a death sentence for the entire TBP community, otherwise we're all going to stink for some time to come.  Sorry for the extended metaphor there.

Oh, "Good Night, and Good Luck".

[IceFire]

I've become slowly aware of the discussions going on here as they have started to spill over into my Private Message inbox.  As some of you may be aware...I used to be the Project Leader for The Babylon Project back in the early days of the project.  I believe I was the third or fourth member to join the project. Seeing as we're establishing credentials...those are mine.  I still care very much for this project and I still feel very attached to it through all of the years and many hours of work I put into the earlier versions.

I hope it doesn't feel then that I'm sticking my nose into others business.  I very much consider the reputation of this project as still being important to me.  I'd therefore like to arbitrate some sort of direction forward that fits into the best interests of everyone involved if I can.  In the meantime I'd very much appreciate it if all of you tone things down a couple of notches.

While this is a legitimate discussion it is not legitimate for things to get completely out of hand which is pretty close to where they are right now.  So I'd like everyone to take a couple of steps back and lets try to approach this rationally.  As I said...if you want to send me a private message about this go ahead.  The more perspectives I can get the better I can do my best to sort this out.

I appreciate it folks.

[Bobboau]

'our' position is simple, there are content bugs in TBP, TBP should be willing to provide (an) official patch(es) to fix these issues. new or improved content is not on this table only fixing bugs with existing content, this would be tables, model hierarchy, model bounding boxes, things of this nature. nothing should be done that would constitute breaking compatibility with the existing content unless that content is completely unusable because of said issues (for example the vorlon dreadnought), and nothing should be done that would constitute an 'upgrade'.

the point of contention at this point is would this even be allowed.

if any of 'us' wants to change that or reword it better, do so.