Author Topic: Freespace 3: The Shivans  (Read 14654 times)

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Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
On the upside... threads like this always are a reminder what the worst case scenario could have been like:  :lol:

http://www.actiontrip.com/comics/at_comic003.phtml
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 07:32:52 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Too true.  :D
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Freespace Rap: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62924.0.html

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Offline Spoon

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
2)lacking resources, Sol doesn't have any fun. I mean ships.
 For a short moment there I got a star control 2 orz vibe
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I've often wondered if it's better to think of the Shivans as white blood cells...

Hah, yeah. I think I posted a theory using that exact same metaphor earlier.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Ooops, didn't see it :nervous:

Yeah, they kind of remind me of them in a way, flooding to a 'damaged' area that is becoming infected (Subspace Nodes being used) and clean out the infection (us), and then cauterising the wound (Capella).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Right. And it's appealing on a storytelling level, because white blood cells aren't intelligent or 'human', but still carry out complex and seemingly directed actions on a wide scale.

 
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Hm, i don't know how i feel about the ideas in this thread being dismissed as being "cliches". While something being a cliche means that its overused, i'm of the opinion that its more about how the cliche is presented vs the fact that it is indeed a cliche. its all about the story telling. Cliches are Cliches because they're such powerful ideas. I think that if the game is done well enough, we could get around the fact that it is a very cliche ending. Although if the shivans dont lay a can of whoopass on the GTVA i will be severly disappointed.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Right. And it's appealing on a storytelling level, because white blood cells aren't intelligent or 'human', but still carry out complex and seemingly directed actions on a wide scale.

It would also go well with the notion of the Shivans being the "revenge of an angry cosmos" as alluded to in one of the cutscenes and it would also lead to interesting implications/speculations of wether a defeat of the Shivans may even be possible, or what such a defeat, impossible as it may be, would actually mean - but of course, as with many analogies, one has to be careful not to overextend it. But yeah, i would agree that the basic idea is quite appealing and certainly feels a lot closer to the mark than any of the sci-fi cliche explanations floating around here.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 05:24:40 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline Getter Robo G

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
It's almost become cliche because these discussions and situations have repeated many times over the years.

You're just too fresh to realize it.  ;)

But that's not a bad thing.
"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Heh i suppose i am.

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
You're not alone :)
Trendy Lefty. Good music from a good friend of mine.

Freespace Rap: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62924.0.html

The Fighter Pilot Series: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72431.msg1431423#msg1431423

The word 'Yo' is only ever to be used as a singular greeting.
It is considered an insult to destroy a perfectly acceptable greeting by misuse. A 'Yo-Yo' is a toy spun from the index finger by small children and enthusiasts,
any such use as a greeting will result in prompt reprimand by any member of the 'African-American' or 'Sri-Lankans-who-think-they're-black' community

Fury`: if General Krav Maga wouldn't be enough, beating up 16 teenagers is going to get me into jail :p /
BlackMan: Maybe if you turned into pedobear you'd be more of a threat

 

Offline bloated

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
if I remember correctly it was suspected that the Shivans were artificially created and the likely storyline was they were little more than tools serving a greater whole... I'm not sure I like that but it could serve.

my personal take is in agreement with that overall concept although I'm more for the Shivans being allowed to exist as the dogs of war they are, an insect like community of xenophobes percieving any and all as a threat.

how to reason with them virtually impossible, Boschs attempt activated a programmed response implanted  by those above them explained with the telling that upon bosch's delivery to those who exist in the shadow ended with the "tainted Shivans" being immediately destroyed....  the Shivans in my eye would be a species of instinctive, decisive and immediate decisions.... can we destroy this threat... they send an army to do such, if it fails why, reasses can we destroy this threat?... if yes or in doubt send a larger army if it fails why? are they a significant threat.... more importantly will they eventually become one, if yes retreat if possible, if not the decision has to be made, destroy them at all cost or retreat, the only 2 options.

the closing of the node was their way of cauterising a wound.

from the point of Shivan mythos any extended contact will eventually lead to dilution of their essence which to them is destruction and death....... obviously unacceptable.

this would explain their actions..... they were exploratory in nature until their was a potential problem, the actions / reactions were more instinctive in this scenario the Shivans care nothing about numbers or about what they destroy.... do they have a greater understanding of the universe.... quite likely but it's the tight views they hold that limit them, they may even be able to build and collapse stars at whim and they only care about the greater whole, they in turn are allowed to live because they serve a purpose to those beyond them as a test for the lessir races to keep them in check.

should this be known by the player.... not really sure it certainly would be tough to translate with credibility but working from this standpoint will provide the continuing storyline direction and limitations to work within so that it doesn't become contradictory and absurd over time.

 

Offline Getter Robo G

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
One of the problems I have with that stop gap measure in regards to the GTVA is from the "ancients" dialogue.

Paraphrasing - "They hunted us down, tracked us through subspace" "No matter how many systems we ran to each was destroyed till we only had one left" "they came for us".

The Shivans had no bones about finding, pursueing and exterminating any threat.


I'm sorry but 80 Saths used intelligently will wipe out just about anyone less than Culture or SG Ancients level... Borg is iffy... IMHO

GTVA was NOT a true consideration to that fleet, they were a "hinderance'.
"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Paraphrasing - "They hunted us down, tracked us through subspace"

Yup... through subspace. Brings us back to the notion that one might want to consider to stop using subspace, ... if one doesn't want to have 80 Sathanas come knocking at ones door eventually. ;)

 

Offline Getter Robo G

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Well frankly, the Shivans only using a "token" force to occupy GTVA while they blow Capella's sun is such a  :wtf: scenario it's reminiscent of another type of situation.

The Minbari surrender at the battle of the line.
Earth was completely outclasses and was DOOMED no matter the time frame involved Humanity was absolutely done, bye bye. Then they mysteriously win!!!

Peopel go :wtf: for Decades after...

Both situations seem to share a common link: There is information the HUMANS don't know till MUCH later (or in our case for FS2, will NEVER know).


It tears at the soul of Why they bothered to blow Capella at all?

I mean look at the sheer expenditure of resources! It took 80 Sathani to blow the sun and some fo them had to be sacrificed to keep the reaction going while the rest jumped out.

I state that the destruction of all the GTVA would not have equaled as many losses as they suffered at Capella.

They CHOSE to take a more expensive (But shorter) route.

I would have sent the entire armada to every system one at a time and eradicated all of the GTVA bit by bit, or split the forces (like two teams of 40) and HERD them to a isolated system and CHECKMATE.

No more GTVA...

But that's just me.
"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
But again... to get anywhere, you would have to assume they think like humans do and not only that, you would have to assume that they pretty much think like contemporary american/western nations think about warfare.

(Even in historic and contemporary human societies/thinking you will find instances where certain concepts and codes of behavior take precedence over mere military "efficiency". Nope, none that i know of would apply to the Shivans, but it certainly demonstrates just how limited a viewpoint focusing on military efficiency really is)

And you just have to take a look at General Battutas suggestion above once more and you already have at least one possible explanation that would make "human" thinking outright irrelevant.

What would a human cell or antibody "care" about sacrificing itself ? Why do we assume that 80 Sathanas were all that the Shivans had anyways ? Because the GTVA assumed the Lucifer was all they had after FS1 ? ;)
In any case "Expenditures of resources" really only means anything within a very tight corsett of thinking and necessarily doesn't even have to mean anything even for humans. For all we know... the Shivans attribute as much "value" to 80 Sathani as we attribute to the water that we flush down the toilet every day. If they even have a concept of "value" to begin with.

If anything, then everything we learned from the previous games is that the GTVA did appear as some sort of irritanct (likely through entering subspace) and therefore the Shivans marshalled some forces against it, but didn t take all that seriously and i severely doubt that it's a matter of "winning" but rather seeing if a threath/irritant can be dealt with - with whatever force has been dispatched... and if not, well ... if it keeps being an irritant, then it will eventually warrant more "attention".

In any case...  something along the lines of an "organism" analogy strikes me as much more intriguing. That would make the GTVA a sort of virus or bacterium dealing with an immune response and the irony of trying to defeat such a response "once and for all" would naturally be quite priceless, even if its propably overextending the analogy way too much already. But at least something along these lines would at least offer a somewhat satisfying "scope" that would mesh well with the spirit of the previous games and that the traditional sci-fi cliche of portraying a specific selection of human traits as "alien" merely by exaggerating them couldn't hope to match.

I.e. the Star Trek way: Emphasize human aggressiveness and honor = voila, Klingons. Emphasize rational thought and logic = tada Vulcans! Greed = Ferengi.... et cetera. Cardassians ... propably Nazis lol.

Along similar lines i would find ANY kind of explanation portraying Shivans merely as an "older" race with advances capabilities and/or a "different agenda" that happens to oppose whatever the GTVA is doing as extremely disappointing and unoriginal...     and whatever "fluff" like "artifical creation/robots" or "hivemind" goes along with it really doesn't matter either, as long as you don't escape the underlaying cliche.

It all boils down to saying "Well they are kinda like us, but different."

I would argue that any kind of explanation that would be even remotely satisfying would have to start along the lines of "They are nothing like us". That's the real beauty of how :v: designed them and should be respected ;)

But as said before... even a "perfect" explanation would be futile as long as it isn't "official". So while one can discuss the merits and flaws of different solutions, it's really all a quite moot point.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 01:05:08 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline bloated

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Quote
One of the problems I have with that stop gap measure in regards to the GTVA is from the "ancients" dialogue.

Paraphrasing - "They hunted us down, tracked us through subspace" "No matter how many systems we ran to each was destroyed till we only had one left" "they came for us".

The Shivans had no bones about finding, pursueing and exterminating any threat.


I'm sorry but 80 Saths used intelligently will wipe out just about anyone less than Culture or SG Ancients level... Borg is iffy... IMHO

GTVA was NOT a true consideration to that fleet, they were a "hinderance'.
I can fix that with only a little bit of effort actually.

1st the ancients not only provide insight into the Shivans motives but also offer up a reason as to why they may have feared / respected or decided to get away from the GTVA.

the Ancients were destroyed by the SD lucifer and while The Ancients figured out how to attack it they were never able to exploit the discovery.

in effect the Shivans had nothing to fear from the Ancients because the Ancients had never managed a significant victory against them..... while on the other hand the GTVA handed them several defeats including destroying one of their capital ships well above and beyond the Lucifer.

with this in mind and a lack of intelligence in regards to the GTVA the reaction could be considered knee jerk.

it kind of plays ok into they sent one of their best ships and it was destroyed... then the GTVA counter attacked and destroyed those 3 mystery devices..... so let's take advantage of those and say they were some type of controller hub that disrupted their entire network...... now the GTVA isn't only a threat but one that is proving troublesome to contain.

so they sealed the portal and left....... for now at least...... it also gives them time to toy with Bosch and his confederates.

 

Offline sigtau

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
That leaves me wondering if Bosch had anything to do with the forced Capella supernova, since he was (voluntarily) captured by the Shivans.  Could he have instigated that upon them?  Or are they like every other stereotypical alien who "probed" him with long hypodermic needles?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I don't know if Bosch was directly responsible for what happened, but I've always liked to think that he had a far more significant fate than becoming Shivan Chow.  After the amount of focus FS2 placed on his personality and ideals, having him wind up as a random nutter who met a swift, bloody end on that transport wouldn't sit right with me.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
it kind of plays ok into they sent one of their best ships and it was destroyed...

Erhm excuse me... but even if what we saw of the Shivans in FS2 is all they have, the Luci is utterly insignificant.


Yes it had shields... but you also have to keep in mind that beams in game currently pierce/ignore shields and that the Colossus was specifically made to annihilate a Lucifer class Destroyer and was bristling with beam weaponry. So why do FS2 capitals have no Luci shields ? ... i guess thats quite simple... because overall it wouldn t have made much of a difference for the outcome..., other than making it quite boring for the player who is stuck piloting a fighter, which makes for a good gameplay reason not to give capitals shields as a whole lol ;)(The alternative would have been to have a subspace mission every other mission which would have been just as silly)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 12:52:43 am by Mikes »