Author Topic: Freespace 3: The Shivans  (Read 24264 times)

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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I still say it would be better if they did a Shivans expansion for the Sims 3 and just explained it that way.

 

Offline ThesaurusRex

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
If I were to make a continuation to the story I'd probably bring the Shivan threat home. The game would begin in the middle of a war between former GTVA faction and the GTVA. Then the GTVA will reopen the jump node to Sol, to gain more support from contested systems in a hope to end the war, only to find it infested with Shivans. For those of you that didn't read my previous thread, the shivans would have arrived in sol via the giant wormhole they made with the capella sun. Anyways, the Shivans basically begin to attack the GTVA, rotting it from the core and spreading outward. At the near end when the GTVA is pushed to the brink of annihilation they will use some kind of technology, revealed during the initial war and before the Shivan arrival, to escape into exile in some other galaxy. Well, that's what I would have done anyways.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 11:42:30 pm by ThesaurusRex »
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Offline High Max

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:10:26 pm by High Max »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
You are thinking too much in human terms. Humans have motivations... that doesn't mean everything else must "function" like us. We have a certain way of perceiving the world and by our own nature we are limited in the ways we can perceive the world. That doesn't mean the world, universe or its inhabitants are limited in the same way.

Biology 101 time.

All living things have motivations. They react to external stimulae in some form. It motivates. You're trying to reach deeper than the term is being used as here. You're also ignoring that fact that since humans are clearly able to comprehend, repurpose, and reengineer Shivan technology,

More to the point, this is immaterial in a larger sense. Tactical, grand tactical, and strategic use of force is dictated not by thought but by capablities. Warfare as the universal language is an ugly truth, but an apt one.
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Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Mhh... just want to point out, before we go more offtopic...

It doesn't really matter for sake of comparison if we talk about a virus or a bacterium or a natural force or desaster. Heck you could even drag ants in just to point out that the presense of "organisation" does not necessarily mean you can relate to something on a motivational level. "Motivation" i would argue, requires human or humanlike "sentience". You have to diferentiate that from mere "behavior". And see... the notion that there could be a race merely exhibiting "behavior" with no outward discernable "motivation" is actually quite scary in its own right if that race has the means to wipe you out. If you give them "motivation" then you can try to understand them and suddenly they are a whole lot less scary.

The only point i was trying to make is that one of the reasons that makes the Shivans such an unique foe... is that they either do not have motivations in the traditional sense of the word, or that their motivations are simply utterly alien and incomprehensible from our perspective. I.e.: I didn't say the Shivans were a virus (lol) what i meant to point out is that they appear so strange to us because their "motivation" if they have any is about as strange to us as if "we were trying to understand the motivation of a virus or bacterium.

... one can point out how organisation and warfare requires a certain amount of intelligence and therefore motivation and that's why everything exhibiting this kind of behavior "needs" to have it.
The problem with that viewpoint is that someone arguing this way is simply not comprehending how the concept of the Shivans works and plays with us on an artistic/literary level.
i.e. it would be just missing the entire point if one starts arguing this way.

Again, from an artistic point of view it is this very thing what makes them unique. They are incomprehensible and we can only guess while staring in the face of destruction - that IS the whole point.
If we shed light on what their motivations actually are, then it would take that away and ruin the unique atmosphere FS1/FS2 had in the process.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. ;)

And as was pointed out above...  i'd think it would be highly doubtful that FS3 would have graced us with any kind of rational explanation of the Shivans. It seems much more likely that Volition would have driven home their point about the dangers of hubris one final time in a spectacular manner, leaving only a few lucky survivors left standing at the end. Something along these lines would at least make a lot of sense artistically and would have been a great way to end a trilogy that has always been toying with how overconfident we humans, including or especially us players (;)), tend to be.

Also as said before, there is no one stopping anyone from making a Shivan campaign either however and there even are some out already
One just needs to realize that such a project is as far removed from FS canon and/or the way Volition approached the series, as any project could possibly be.
And finally, any answer of what the Shivans actually are or what they want will be unsatisfactory as it will allow them to be put in a box - when the whole draw of their concept is... that we do not have a box to put them in.

By our own nature we always want to know, to find out, to classify....... so what better way to design an alien foe... than by defying that very human trait of wanting to know it all ?;)
That's the question you should ask yourself, before trying to come up with any kind of explanation.

The Shivans are part of a fictional story that wants to be enjoyed, they aren't a "problem" to be solved in the real world, ... and sadly, you are not doing the story any kind of justice... or favor, if you treat them as a solvable problem.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 11:34:25 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
But that doesn't mean anything.
The Shivans could have far more cognitive power than Humans...
Ergh, this whole debate is making no sense anyway.

EDIT: Hmm, someone pulled a post from before mine. And Made it into a separate thread.  :wtf:
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Just bear in mind, the Shivans are a symptom of a larger problem ;)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
But that doesn't mean anything.
The Shivans could have far more cognitive power than Humans...
Ergh, this whole debate is making no sense anyway.

EDIT: Hmm, someone pulled a post from before mine. And Made it into a separate thread.  :wtf:

It went over to GenDisc.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Quote
Or in other words: The Shivans concept is very close to that of an unopened present. (except of course that a present is something positive while the Shivans would represent the opposite of the emotional spectrum). Unopened presents are tantalizing us with possibilities. The very nature of it is that we want to know what is inside. By opening it however, you turn it into something entirely else: An opened present.

No point in having a present if never opened in the end.
I agree with this point.  One can wax poetic about how the entire artistic and literary merit of the Shivans depends on that sense of utter mystery and lack of comprehensible motivations, or how explaining said motivations to any extent would ruin much of what makes the games great (which I also have a bit of contention with), but in the end, we're all a bunch of gamers playing through a story that :v: never got to bring to any sort of conclusion.  (Ignore that said conclusion may have never existed in anyone's mind to begin with at the time of FS2's development.)  :v: dropped tiny hints throughout both games about their ideas on the Shivans' nature, but in the end, FS2's devastatingly fantastic cliffhanger ending left us all dangling.  And as much as I love the fact that said cliffhanger has allowed for so very many excellent fan-made concepts, at the same time, part of me is always going to remain exceedingly disappointed that we never got to learn how the story "truly" ended.  Literary conceits can hang themselves if they come between me and obtaining the knowledge that I desire. :p

And to be perfectly frank, I would view any sort of "humanity left all but extinct" ending as a rather large cop-out, since I tend to view such apocalyptic conclusions as being every bit as trite and cliche as the deus ex machina sort of "happily ever after."  That isn't to say that quality examples of both don't exist, but I view those as being exceedingly rare and difficult to pull off well.  Given the choice between any and all possibilities, what I'd most like to see is something that splits the difference.  Have the GTVA face the Shivans again, at great cost as before, but in the end, have them come to some sort of capitulation or "agreement" with them.  Not a full-fledged explanation...but a capitulation nonetheless.  Let the GTVA establish the barest form of rudimentary contact, perhaps even via the huge dangling plot thread of Bosch.  Don't explain away what drives the Shivans or makes them tick, but at least give us enough to understand just what they would want (if "want" is the right word) out of the GTVA in order for that threat of destruction to be mitigated once and for all.  If pulled off properly, I feel like I'd enjoy the hell out of such a story.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Quote
Or in other words: The Shivans concept is very close to that of an unopened present. (except of course that a present is something positive while the Shivans would represent the opposite of the emotional spectrum). Unopened presents are tantalizing us with possibilities. The very nature of it is that we want to know what is inside. By opening it however, you turn it into something entirely else: An opened present.

No point in having a present if never opened in the end.
I agree with this point.  One can wax poetic about how the entire artistic and literary merit of the Shivans depends on that sense of utter mystery and lack of comprehensible motivations, or how explaining said motivations to any extent would ruin much of what makes the games great (which I also have a bit of contention with), but in the end, we're all a bunch of gamers playing through a story that :v: never got to bring to any sort of conclusion.  (Ignore that said conclusion may have never existed in anyone's mind to begin with at the time of FS2's development.)  :v: dropped tiny hints throughout both games about their ideas on the Shivans' nature, but in the end, FS2's devastatingly fantastic cliffhanger ending left us all dangling.  And as much as I love the fact that said cliffhanger has allowed for so very many excellent fan-made concepts, at the same time, part of me is always going to remain exceedingly disappointed that we never got to learn how the story "truly" ended.  Literary conceits can hang themselves if they come between me and obtaining the knowledge that I desire. :p

And to be perfectly frank, I would view any sort of "humanity left all but extinct" ending as a rather large cop-out, since I tend to view such apocalyptic conclusions as being every bit as trite and cliche as the deus ex machina sort of "happily ever after."  That isn't to say that quality examples of both don't exist, but I view those as being exceedingly rare and difficult to pull off well.  Given the choice between any and all possibilities, what I'd most like to see is something that splits the difference.  Have the GTVA face the Shivans again, at great cost as before, but in the end, have them come to some sort of capitulation or "agreement" with them.  Not a full-fledged explanation...but a capitulation nonetheless.  Let the GTVA establish the barest form of rudimentary contact, perhaps even via the huge dangling plot thread of Bosch.  Don't explain away what drives the Shivans or makes them tick, but at least give us enough to understand just what they would want (if "want" is the right word) out of the GTVA in order for that threat of destruction to be mitigated once and for all.  If pulled off properly, I feel like I'd enjoy the hell out of such a story.

Well how the story would have "truly" ended we will never know.
And i guess you know by now that my issue with "exploring shivan motivations" is that it would not only hurt FSs atmosphere, but also go against the spirit of the earlier games.
It would never be a "true" ending either, it would only be what "person X" made up and well... if it explored the Shivan point of view then i would furthermore argue that what they made up has nothing to do with what Freespace was all about lol.

As for what we would have to do to "mitigate the Shivan threath once and for all" ? Now that's simple: Sleeper ship out into nowhere on sublight and never touch a subspace node again. That would fit 100% into canon as well:p
Oh yeah that wouldn't be convenient, but Freespace was never about convenience now was it ? Nope it was about Hubris and overconfidence and getting a huge punch in the face as a result.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 12:22:02 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Enigmatic Entity

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
So someone thinks that the Shivans would destroy their creators to escape control. Does this conjure up any ideas?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Well how the story would have "truly" ended we will never know.
And i guess you know by now that my issue with "exploring shivan motivations" is that it would not only hurt FSs atmosphere, but also go against the spirit of the earlier games.
It would never be a "true" ending either, it would only be what "person X" made up and well... if it explored the Shivan point of view then i would furthermore argue that what they made up has nothing to do with what Freespace was all about lol.
When I say "truly," I mean, "how :v: would have ended things." I'm sure that the creative staff never had any more than a few vague ideas for a potential sequel (thus the "bigger problem" and "planet-sized ships" quotes), but I'd like to think that somewhere buried deep in the brain of someone like Mike Kulas is the concept of what :v: felt the Shivans were really all about.  And if telling the whole story would have ruined the experience, we could have at least learned quite a bit more than we did.

Quote
As for what we would have to do to "mitigate the Shivan threath once and for all" ? Now that's simple: Sleeper ship out into nowhere on sublight and never touch a subspace node again. That would fit 100% into canon as well:p
Oh yeah that wouldn't be convenient, but Freespace was never about convenience now was it ? Nope it was about Hubris and overconfidence and getting a huge punch in the face as a result.
I'd have to contend with this, at least to a point.  I'll agree that the downfall of hubris was definitely a large element in both games, but I also feel like they were just as much, if not more so, about the potential inherent in humanity's adaptability and ingenuity.  At the outset of FS1, the Terrans and Vasudans were mired in a pointless war of attrition, but the sudden appearance of the Shivans forced them to set aside their differences (for the most part) and form an alliance of necessity.  Both species were pushed to the brink of extinction by the Lucifer, yet with some scientific breakthroughs and a big stroke of luck, they managed to hold on.  They certainly suffered massive defeats in the destruction of Vasuda Prime and loss of Earth, but they survived, and that alliance of necessity blossomed into one of mutual trust.  Fast-forward to FS2, and in the midst of internal strife, the Shivans appear again...yet this time, the GTVA could fight them on their own terms, thanks to the lessons of the past.  Even after the seemingly-unstoppable Sathanas showed up, a plan was formulated and implemented, and the threat was eliminated in a relatively short period of time.  Yes, there was a sense of impending doom when the Sathanas fleet appeared, but even then, there was a plan in place, and despite the utter shock that was the Capella supernova, it was implemented, and the GTVA was safe.  (One could rightfully argue that the Sathanas fleet seemingly had no interest in destroying the GTVA in the first place, but that's beside the point for this discussion.)  While this was certainly no victory, as one of the most populous systems in GTVA space was lost forever, the Capellan evacuation was carried out successfully, and the sealed nodes meant that the Shivan threat was held at bay, at least for the time being.  And more importantly, the GTVA found the key to undo a large chunk of that near-defeat in FS1.

In the end, Terrans and Vasudans suffer massive defeats on several levels, and their collective pride does get leveled by the Shivans' actions, yet somehow, they manage to soldier on.  In FS1, they barely escaped annihilation; in FS2, they seemingly sidestepped it, and gained a great gift in the process.   I'd like to think that, going down the line, this progression of ingenuity, coupled with the lessons learned from those prideful mistakes of the past, would have enabled the GTVA to at least stave off, if not counter, whatever the Shivans might throw at them in the future.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Well how the story would have "truly" ended we will never know.
And i guess you know by now that my issue with "exploring shivan motivations" is that it would not only hurt FSs atmosphere, but also go against the spirit of the earlier games.
It would never be a "true" ending either, it would only be what "person X" made up and well... if it explored the Shivan point of view then i would furthermore argue that what they made up has nothing to do with what Freespace was all about lol.
When I say "truly," I mean, "how :v: would have ended things." I'm sure that the creative staff never had any more than a few vague ideas for a potential sequel (thus the "bigger problem" and "planet-sized ships" quotes), but I'd like to think that somewhere buried deep in the brain of someone like Mike Kulas is the concept of what :v: felt the Shivans were really all about.  And if telling the whole story would have ruined the experience, we could have at least learned quite a bit more than we did.

Just out of curiousity... what did we really learn about the Shivans in Freespace 2, other than that they totally outclassed us military ? Sure... we had a glimpse behind their lines during that one recon mission... and we had the ramblings of Bosch who was just speculating himself... but as far as their motivations go ? I severely doubt FS3 would have been any different in this one respect and as said before, "continuing or finishing" the story does not automatically mean we would have found out "what the Shivans were all about" at all.

In the end, Terrans and Vasudans suffer massive defeats on several levels, and their collective pride does get leveled by the Shivans' actions, yet somehow, they manage to soldier on.  In FS1, they barely escaped annihilation; in FS2, they seemingly sidestepped it, and gained a great gift in the process.   I'd like to think that, going down the line, this progression of ingenuity, coupled with the lessons learned from those prideful mistakes of the past, would have enabled the GTVA to at least stave off, if not counter, whatever the Shivans might throw at them in the future.

The GTVA certainly did learn. They adapted. They forged an alliance and used all their ingenuity to build a ship that could counter any Shivan threath they knew.

Your viewpoint sounds familiar ... but from my viewpoint it would make a quite juicy target to point out the trappings of hubris with finality. You have to keep in mind... you can also look at it this way: In Freespace1 they actually beat the Shivan Fleet... barely... in Freespace2 it became clear that they could not even hope to compete as far as military might goes and only survived by cutting themselves off.... in Freespace 3 ? It would have been the end of a trilogy, so who s not to say Volition might have challenged their "players" overconfidence in happy endings with an end of human civilization ? It certainly would have been an ingenious way to end a story. ;)
No doubt, the battles we would have fought in FS3 would have been epic... but i still believe you are mistaking the nature of the series if you were hoping for any kind of "happy" ending besides "whew some of us survived, barely".

I guess we can only agree to disagree. ;) I do appreciate the discussion tho!

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
My imagined FS3 scenario is the following:

1) A lot of time has to pass since we need new-gen ships for a new game.
2) Sol Node has to be reopened
3) Since we need a place to meet the Shivans, a) the GTVA gets greater or b) build a Knossos to Capella! (not so silly if you think about it)
4) We need to meet Bosch (or if he's dead, his followers or the next generation of the former Iceni guys)
4.5) Rebellion, if possible, please! Resurrected Hol or sg!
5) A fourth race a) the creators of the Shivans b) a hybrid Terran-Shivan stuff, renegades of both (I favor scenario a) and this is what I'll discuss later)
6) The creators attack the Shivans and us - we communicate with the Shivans but they say nothing of importance and continue to fight agains us and their even more powerful creators.
7) All 3 sides are running low on supplies in the and and we find the Shivan homeworld, too, but only in a recon mission
8) The Shivans use something even more kickass than the Capella Novaer and beat (but not finally defeat) their creators
9) They turn on us with full strength
10) Humanity (and, of course, Vasudanity) destroys something very important to the Shivans is a very desperate attack so they retreat and we let them go (and destroy the Capellan Knossos or the node where the Shivans and their creators came) - or, as stated above, they manage to exterminate the GTVA



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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Don't think it's interesting. It has the fourth-race cliche, the hybrid cliche, the homeworld cliche (why would a race adapted to zero gravity need a homeworld?), and the 'one weak point' thing.

It just doesn't break from the trappings of sci-fi space opera in the way previous Freespace did.

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Don't think it's interesting. It has the fourth-race cliche, the hybrid cliche, the homeworld cliche (why would a race adapted to zero gravity need a homeworld?), and the 'one weak point' thing.

It just doesn't break from the trappings of sci-fi space opera in the way previous Freespace did.

Geez, all the points you criticized had alternatives.
And BTW it has been canonically said that the Shivans "might have had been" created, contructed by another entity. Probably this wasn't a joke.
The homeworld and one weak point stuffs: I added to the end that I am happy to accept the total extinction of humanity as an ending :)
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Offline Mikes

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Don't think it's interesting. It has the fourth-race cliche, the hybrid cliche, the homeworld cliche (why would a race adapted to zero gravity need a homeworld?), and the 'one weak point' thing.

It just doesn't break from the trappings of sci-fi space opera in the way previous Freespace did.

That pretty much puts the finger on what issues i have with most of the proposals in this thread...  for some reason it seems to be all about turning something unique...  into whatever kind of cliche someone finds cool at the moment - happily blundering along like some of the cheesiest novels i ever read, with little care of how it would fit into the spirit of the previous games or what it would do to the atmosphere :v: created.

... i can't see this ending well - if it ever goes anywhere,...



If Volition had made it, then we'd know what they intended and could as a consequence concentrate on discussing if we like or dislike the ending. - but that is a moot point.

As for a fanmade "FS3" project... i think it has been convincingly established before - several times lol - that it would be simply a bad idea, even just for the reason that it would be quite naive to believe one could get the community as a whole, or even just as a majority, to agree with a single "unofficial/semi-official" ending. One would always end up annoying more people than one could please...  even with a quite original ending without any of the cliches flying around in here lol.


It's not the first time that it has been proposed, but it's still just as bad of an idea ...   and it basically boils down to this:
Anything not made by :v: themselves is pretty much the making of another mod , but pretending this mod is better than all the others by calling it Freespace 3. And well, good luck with that.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 04:07:57 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Ziame

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Maybe Shivans were created by Jesus! :nervous:

But seriously guys, I think the following:
1) something like "After 48 years we go to sol, wee"
2)lacking resources, Sol doesn't have any fun. I mean ships.
3) screw you sol, we are going home
4) borders of GTVA space begin to get screwed by Shivans
5)everyone is like "WTF" and the shivans just continue to push
6) here shows Bosch (alive by some means, or just a recording, you catch my drift) saying "oh sry they kinda misunderstood me"
7) Shivans are pissed as never before
8) gtva begins evacuation to somewhere
9)... then shivans rape the whole project with ubernewship
10) Last battle commences in Sol node
11) Shivans rape us too, destroy ****in everything
12) Outro:
We see some other race guys (for example fish with legs) who discover our "monuments" on Earth, and narrator says something like "they screwed races before us, and they screwed us, but someday, some race will have so much info to start with, so much info gathered from those who've fallen before, that they'll be able to destroy shivans, and avenge their crimes"
The end k thx bai
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Offline Getter Robo G

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I see people aren't reading the stickies again...

(anyway)

My Shivan theory is too big to be contained just in the FS2 universe, which is why I started writing a fanfiction back in 2004 and continue it as a multi arc/franchise spanning event today.

The Shivans are just a tiny cog in a much larger wheel...

I am done.


[EDIT] Ok I was gonna link the policy to this posting, but where the heck is the sticky that contains the forums view on new FSX threads?

Did Goober break the Forum again from last April Fools day.  ;7


« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 06:25:03 am by Getter Robo G »
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I've often wondered if it's better to think of the Shivans as white blood cells...