Author Topic: "You lie!!"  (Read 22338 times)

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Offline iamzack

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I don't watch much tv, but I tend to turn it to conservative news sources when I do watch the news. I get bored of liberal paranoia.

Plus, conservatives make me feel smart.
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Offline General Battuta

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Now I'm not saying I agree with either side, quite frankly I haven't made up my mind, but the idea that everyone who is opposing the massive expenditures the government is proposing are doing it because they're bigots is foolish.  

I definitely wouldn't say that.

However, I don't understand how massive government expenditures now are any different from Bush policy, when we weren't even investing in our own country. The kind of national efforts Obama has proposed are pretty minimal compared to what we did for Iraq - after creating the problem in the first place!

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
The teabagger stance appears to be "Obama's a Kenyan Muslim terrorist who wants to destroy America by making us all commies/nazis/fascists also CZARS and the DEFICIT and BUY YOUR OWN HEALTH CARE AND IF YOU CANT YOURE PROLLY JUST A GREASY ILLEGAL OR FAG ANYWAY GET OUT OF GOD'S FAVORITEST NATION"
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Offline General Battuta

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Apparently 70% of doctors favor a public option for health care.

Evidence enough for me.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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well, that's probably because you don't go to conservative sources. you go to "unbiased" sources, i.e. the ones telling you things the way you think is right i.e. liberal sources.
unless I'm mistaken and you give fox news enough time to let them pose their position to you.

The problem with that is Fox News' posistions are almost uniformly stupid, being poorly researched and poorly thought-out.

Also, lulz liberal media card.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Now I'm not saying I agree with either side, quite frankly I haven't made up my mind, but the idea that everyone who is opposing the massive expenditures the government is proposing are doing it because they're bigots is foolish. 

I definitely wouldn't say that.

However, I don't understand how massive government expenditures now are any different from Bush policy, when we weren't even investing in our own country. The kind of national efforts Obama has proposed are pretty minimal compared to what we did for Iraq - after creating the problem in the first place!

I think it comes down to fear, all the Patriot Act bull**** and the War came when we were afraid about terrorists and international threats.  Folk were willing to let it slide because they were scared.  Now we have the opposite effect, people are afraid about their livelihood and healthcare and now they are in opposition to the government's proposals. 

I guess my issue right now is that quashing the entirety of the opposition with some catchy phrase like 'unAmerican' got us in a whole heap of **** during the last eight years.  Using 'racist' like a bludgeon instrument to ram another bit of controvercial legislature  seems like history repeating itself.

Course I wish Bush had managed to destroy the GOP during his presidency.  The Democrats would have fractured and we would have gotten new parties and a refresh of the system.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 02:46:28 pm by StarSlayer »
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Offline General Battuta

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Concur.

On a statistical level I doubt terrorists kill nearly as many people as our crappy healthcare every year.

 

Offline Sushi

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Well, I do research on implicit subconscious racism, which is present in the automatic cognitive processes of just about everyone. And I must say that some of the criticisms of Obama carry some telling flags. By no means all, but when I hear things like 'he's not a real American', 'he's a terrorist', 'he's the first affirmative-action president' (because non-whites only achieve things due to handouts, right?), it sets off alarms.

Fair enough. Can't argue with that, but I still worry about people using some racist/semiracist opposition in order to discredit all opposition.

As for the back end, as with so many of the freakouts these days, I don't see why you're concerned about people wanting a king now when everyone was rushing to hand the last administration our civil liberties in exchange for protection. Where was the fear then?

You're right, I should have been more worried. I wasn't paying enough attention and that was a mistake. Still, though, I don't think that error invalidates my concerns now. The example you cite (giving civil liberties away for "protection" from the government) is symptomatic of the attitude I'm worried about. :) To be clear, my concerns are at least as much about society and how people think as they are about the government.

And for the record, I think that the "why weren't you complaining last administration?" argument is pretty weak too. :p If the concerns being raised are valid, they're valid regardless of the motives for raising them...IMHO it's better to deal with arguments/concerns directly, instead of dismissing them based on the source.

  

Offline iamzack

  • 26
The thing is, if the same person who never once *****ed about spending under Bush is coming out to holler at Fox's tea parties, the concern probably isn't that big of a deal.
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Offline General Battuta

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Fair points all, Sushi.

But this:
The thing is, if the same person who never once *****ed about spending under Bush is coming out to holler at Fox's tea parties, the concern probably isn't that big of a deal.

Is kind of the foundation of the 'why not last administration?' critique. It seems like a lot of these people are rationalizing their dislike of Obama by hunting for reasonable justifications.

Which is how human beings actually conduct most disagreements, including justifying the purchase of a hot dog instead of a hamburger, but hey, so it goes.


 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Dude, hot dogs are disgusting.
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Offline Bobboau

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or maybe they are right wingers and he and his party are enacting left wing policies.

no, that couldn't possibly be it.
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Offline iamzack

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What left wing policies? He's advocating investing monetarily in our own nation instead of somebody else's for once.

Meanwhile, still waiting on gay marriage, marijuana, equal employment, drinking age, comprehensive sex education, bannination of ID/creationism in science classrooms, etc, etc.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Bobboau

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he is suggesting socialized government run health care, that is left wing.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline iamzack

  • 26
No. He is suggesting increased regulations on the private health insurance industry and expanding the various government-provided health insurance policies already in place.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Bobboau

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"increased regulations"
"expanding the various government-provided"

left wing
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Yes and No

Healthcare is a different can of worms then national defense.  Taxes may go up to pay for the logistics of fighting a war and for the families who have their loved ones deployed it is pure hell.  But overall it's not directly effecting the populace, healthcare on the other hand effects everyone.  In a nation where the largest portion of the population is baby boomers looking at retirement and increased medical needs the type of changes the government is proposing is like looking down the barrel of a gun.  Especially on the heels of a recession that just beat the **** out of many folks IRAs etc.  They have legitimate concerns about whats going on because it directly affects them.  Even if the governments' plan was perfection your still stirring the applecart for the largest portion of the population right when they need to buy their Granny Smiths.  The fact that is controvercial has got folks scared and legitimately so.  If we were predominantly a young healthy nation implementing big changes to the healthcare system wouldn't be a big deal, we would have a good chance of working out the kinks in the long term.  But we are not, most folks are in their 50s and 60s so rocking the boat is damn scary because if the new system screws the pooch they are up the creek.

Personally one of my reservations about the whole thing is that while Scandinavia can rock Socialism like its hawt I tend to think our government is to retarded to implement it properly.  :D
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Offline iamzack

  • 26
"increased regulations"
"expanding the various government-provided"

left wing

So rightwingers really believe that if somebody can't afford health care, they deserve to die in the street?
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Offline NGTM-1R

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"expanding the various government-provided"

The left hardly has a monopoly on expanding the government, son.
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Offline General Battuta

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"expanding the various government-provided"

The left hardly has a monopoly on expanding the government, son.

Yeah, seriously.