[Black Wolf]

I suppose I'm guilty of looking at it through a historical lenses of the war itself, as opposed seeing it stuck on a pick-up in celebration the last medieval society on earth.

Last medieal society? There are plenty of medieval and lower level societies still making the rounds out there you know...

[iamzack]

The confederate flag is one of THE symbols of hate in the south...In the south, it represents hatred.

It shows how little you understand some things.

The flag is representative of a fight for freedom from what was deemed an oppressive federal government by a group of states.  It was that oppressive government that resorted to force to keep the states in the union.  Until that time, the vast majority of governmental power had resided with the individual states.  Certainly slavery had a part, and I'm hardly saying the CSA were a bunch of saints, but the war was more about individual states rights. Hundreds of thousands of brave men(and some women) fought, bled and died pretty horrific deaths for a cause they felt was right and honorable.  For those that still fly that flag, the VAST majority are honoring the sacrifices on BOTH sides.  Using your logic, the graveyards at Normandy should be torn down and forgotten as well.

Besides being wrong in general (states' rights? have you read the Confederate Constitution?), you are utterly missing the point. People who fly the confederate flag in the south don't fly it to represent freedom from oppressive government or any of that bull****. People here fly the flag to intimidate and inspire fear. They fly it to glorify a revolution that was racist and hateful to its very core. It's not about "remembering history" it's about remembering the "good old days." And they wrap it up in victimhood, like the south was full of people who simply loved freedom, and the War of Northern Aggression was about killing off their way of life.

[NGTM-1R]

The notion that random martial exploits can be considered great doesn't sit particularly well with me (although I suppose my discomfort depends on the definition of 'great' you're using). That aside, I'm not advocating forgetting anything about the Civil War. Oh no. I simply don't think the display of the flag is a necessary component of that remembrance. Especially since there's no way to elide the racist implications of the flag. Even more so since that remembrance often looks a lot like glorification, and forgetfulness of a different sort; witness the people who insist that, like, the Confederacy wasn't racist, dude.

Fine then, consider the war from a purely logistical standpoint if it bothers you. Or think of it as a warning. The thing is, you are advocating forgetting. You want to forget the flag. How else will anyone remember it except by display? If you don't believe me, see what's happened to the Confederacy's civil flag. The vast majority of people won't recognize it because no one has ever displayed it. (Much the same can be said of the Army of Tennessee's battleflag. The design typically used is the Army of Northern Virginia's.)

I recognize the racist implications are a part of the flag now. That's part of the point. As I said, the Confederacy did many great things, things worthy of being remembered. Unfortunately, one of them happens to be holding millions in slavery. (Which is, if nothing else, an impressive technical accomplishment.) We remember the Nazi flag for the holocaust more than for what they accomplished militarily, though both are things that should be remembered.

So build it its own little flagpole of shame or something if that makes you feel better. But display the flag.


And surprisingly Liberator's not completely full of crap. Viewed through the lense of the time, how John Brown was hailed as a hero for attempting to start an insurrection based on a racist principle of his own (kill all whites, 'cept my guys, they're cool), the Southern states had every reason to be frightened for their way of life. The federal government was refusing to protect them. They might as well have already been part of a different country. Secession was viewed as pro forma, something already done in reality, that merely needed to be expressly spelled out.

Ultimately, the Civil War was about killing off their way of life. (Study the Reconstruction and it's very hard to believe anything else.) Granted their way of life needed to die for the greater good, but they have every right to view themselves as victims.

[StarSlayer]

I suppose I'm guilty of looking at it through a historical lenses of the war itself, as opposed seeing it stuck on a pick-up in celebration the last medieval society on earth.

Last medieal society? There are plenty of medieval and lower level societies still making the rounds out there you know...

There are plenty places on Earth that socially or technologically could be considered 'medieval' but in terms of continuing the traditions directly from the middle ages Europe I think the South was it.  Czarist Russia the other major holdout freed its serfs in 61.  The Confederacy actively emulated feudalism with a small landed gentry holding the majority of the population in servitude up until the end of the war.  Antebellum South held a lot of chivalric/feudal notions with veneration, there was a lot of  honor before reason and a romanticized ideal of conflict.  If I'm not mistaken Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court was specifically a deconstruction of the South's idolization of the middle ages.

[BloodEagle]

I'm going to ignore the opportunity to take the pot-shot at Black History Month that you opened up, and instead point out this and this. Oh, and don't forget about this.

Some things are best remembered.

I don't know where you're going with the Black History Month reference, and I fail to see what the first and third events you linked (please don't insult me with something along the lines of the middle again) have to do with the Confederate flag specifically.  As mxlm mentioned, no one's advocating forgetting about any aspect of the Civil War entirely, nor about any of the atrocities committed during it or the deep and lasting national wounds it caused.  That being said, I have very little sympathy for slave-holders and secessionists, and at least in my mind, flying that flag today is, at the very least, a massive display of bad taste.

Really? Okay, I'll explain our posts for you.

Of course.  We won, they lost, and it's high time they dealt with it.

I interpreted that (nice RetCon, by the way) as (considering the context is ceasing the display of the Confederate Flag) something along the lines of 'Dude. That was AGES AGO! They should forget about it and shut up.'

I suppose that I could be mistaken about your intended message, but I fail to see how.

I'm going to ignore the opportunity to take the pot-shot at Black History Month that you opened up, and instead point out this and this. Oh, and don't forget about this.

Some things are best remembered.

My point was that some things are best remembered. E.g., atrocities commited during the course of war. The reason for including Nanjing was that I'm not readily familiar with any commited (against the Union) by the Confederacy, though I'm sure that there were, and I wanted to give the impression that I was speaking in general about atrocities, rather than about 'them damned ol' yanks.'

My sarcastic 'pot-shot' joke was that, by the interpretation of your post (that people should forget), those descended from the slaves of the time should forget that their ancestors were slaves.

--

This is why we study history in school.  It is not a reason to carry the standard of traitors or glorify their treason.  Preserve the flag as a historical artifact, and study the events surrounding it, but don't fly it and ignorantly proclaim, "The South shall rise again!" as though the Confederacy was some pure and noble movement.

What traitors? What treason? When did I advocate secession?

--

So build it its own little flagpole of shame or something if that makes you feel better. But display the flag.

Agreed. One thousand times agreed.

[General Battuta]

Jeez, I hadn't heard this before:

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

(thanks to mxlm)

The display of a flag meant to symbolize such a government is indeed an act of hate, and, I tentatively assert, should be no more permissible than the display of the swastika or the rising sun - symbols which also flew over a number of great and terrible deeds, but which are rightly vilified and cast aside.

[iamzack]

And surprisingly Liberator's not completely full of crap. Viewed through the lense of the time, how John Brown was hailed as a hero for attempting to start an insurrection based on a racist principle of his own (kill all whites, 'cept my guys, they're cool), the Southern states had every reason to be frightened for their way of life. The federal government was refusing to protect them. They might as well have already been part of a different country. Secession was viewed as pro forma, something already done in reality, that merely needed to be expressly spelled out.

Ultimately, the Civil War was about killing off their way of life. (Study the Reconstruction and it's very hard to believe anything else.) Granted their way of life needed to die for the greater good, but they have every right to view themselves as victims.

Reconstruction was largely revenge for the Civil War. Look at Andrew Johnson's plan versus the Republicans'. The goal was to punish the south for trying to destroy the nation.

And it doesn't matter in the slightest what you think the confederate flag should stand for, which is what you're advocating. It doesn't. Period.

The confederate flag stands for freedom and states' rights and achievement in the same way that the swastika does. People don't display swastikas to "remember the holocaust." They display them to show their racist ideology. Same for the confederate flag. People display it in the south to inspire fear in those that they hate. The southern way of life before the Civil War was nothing to be protected. The southern way of life after the Civil War was nothing to be protected.

No matter what supposedly great things the confederacy accomplished, they accomplished them in the name of destroying freedom and equality.

By the way, here's the confederate constitution side-by-side with the US constitution.

[NGTM-1R]

The display of a flag meant to symbolize such a government is indeed an act of hate, and, I tentatively assert, should be no more permissible than the display of the swastika or the rising sun - symbols which also flew over a number of great and terrible deeds, but which are rightly vilified and cast aside.

Japan still uses the Rising Sun flag, FYI. Indeed, saying you should censor the Rising Sun shows a deep misunderstanding, as that was the navy's flag, and while hardly blameless they still compiled a much better record then the army, who used the simple national flag. (Which Japan still uses.)  But fine, if you wish to censor history, that is your perogative. Just don't expect the rest of us to jump off the slippery slope after you.

Reconstruction was largely revenge for the Civil War. Look at Andrew Johnson's plan versus the Republicans'. The goal was to punish the south for trying to destroy the nation.

Reconstruction was not revenge for the Civil War. Revenge for the Civil War was the actual Civil War, Sherman's March to the Sea, the burning of Atlanta. Hard war was a direct result of Union defeats. Reconstruction was about destroying Southern society to prevent a recurrance.

And it doesn't matter in the slightest what you think the confederate flag should stand for, which is what you're advocating. It doesn't. Period.

Oh come now. Surely you can do better than a simple straw man. This is not mere opinion; the battle flag of the Confederacy stood for something beside what you like to think and always did. That's why it's called "the battle flag of the Confederacy."

Also: Why should I care what you think it stands for? What anyone thinks it stands for?

The confederate flag stands for freedom and states' rights and achievement in the same way that the swastika does.

Again with the straw man. Hell, I'm not even mentioning states' rights. Are you actually going to argue with me on the merits?

=
 People don't display swastikas to "remember the holocaust." They display them to show their racist ideology. Same for the confederate flag. People display it in the south to inspire fear in those that they hate.

Are you saying there's no Swastikas in the holocaust museum? 'cuz there are, I assure you. They're in a lot of textbooks talking about the holocaust too. Same for the Confederate flag and slavery.

Mind you, they usually show the actual Confederate States flag, not the battle flag, because they're not idiots and they realize that the Army wasn't half-assed about who served. Displaying the battleflag for the reasons you state is criminal for an entirely different reason. While it's not someone I'm directly related to (sadly, all-white in this line of the family AFAIK), people who bear my family name can trace ancestory back to someone who drew pension after the war from the CSA when they had gone with their master to join the Army of Tennessee. (And if you wonder how that works, recall the CSA's army was composed of units raised, equipped, and paid by the individual states.)

So **** on what you think they fly them for. **** on what they think they fly them for. Neither of you understand actually what you're talking about.

The southern way of life before the Civil War was nothing to be protected. The southern way of life after the Civil War was nothing to be protected.

While I agree with you, that doesn't invalidate my point. Try again.

No matter what supposedly great things the confederacy accomplished, they accomplished them in the name of destroying freedom and equality.

And that is why it is even more important that we remember.

[Mongoose]

Really? Okay, I'll explain our posts for you.

Of course.  We won, they lost, and it's high time they dealt with it.

I interpreted that (nice RetCon, by the way) as (considering the context is ceasing the display of the Confederate Flag) something along the lines of 'Dude. That was AGES AGO! They should forget about it and shut up.'

I suppose that I could be mistaken about your intended message, but I fail to see how.

You are mistaken, because my actual intent was along the lines of what iamzack is saying.  In my mind, the Confederate leadership were largely a bunch of racist, treasonous bastards, veiling their true motivation behind a screen of "states' rights nonsense."  The Confederacy lost the war, and the Union was restored, but there are far too many dumbasses out there trying to glorify what happened, and the Confederate flag is the main instrument by which they do so.  When I said "deal with it," I meant that they should get a clue about what really happened and shut the hell up with their nonsense.

[General Battuta]

The display of a flag meant to symbolize such a government is indeed an act of hate, and, I tentatively assert, should be no more permissible than the display of the swastika or the rising sun - symbols which also flew over a number of great and terrible deeds, but which are rightly vilified and cast aside.

Japan still uses the Rising Sun flag, FYI. Indeed, saying you should censor the Rising Sun shows a deep misunderstanding, as that was the navy's flag, and while hardly blameless they still compiled a much better record then the army, who used the simple national flag. (Which Japan still uses.)  But fine, if you wish to censor history, that is your perogative. Just don't expect the rest of us to jump off the slippery slope after you.

The naval flag is considered offensive in most of the countries that were part of the Co-Prosperity Sphere. To Americans that fear may not seem as visceral, but Japan never impacted our psyche as deeply as the Nazis (despite the fact that at the time the Japanese were arguably more hated.)

The Confederate flag stands for a cause that was explicitly racist. It may have been a fight for state's rights, but the rights they asked for were the rights to enslave and oppress.

No matter what supposedly great things the confederacy accomplished, they accomplished them in the name of destroying freedom and equality.

And that is why it is even more important that we remember.

I don't understand this. Could you clarify? It doesn't seem like a statement that would hold true for the Khmer Rouge or the French revolutionaries or the Lord's Resistance Army or...anyone else of that ilk.

And I think I agree with Mongoose.

[Mongoose]

You know, that Confederate constitution makes for interesting reading; thanks for linking it, zack.  As the page author notes at the bottom, the whole idea of the Confederacy being strongly in favor of "states' rights" kind of flies out the window when you observe how few and minor the concessions made to the states actually were; in fact, it actually restricts the rights of the states in a few notable ways.  The language is also blatantly clear that slavery in the Confederacy is not only legalized, but just about mandatory, as no state is allowed to outlaw it.  Putting those points aside, though, there are actually one or two unrelated phrases that might do the current federal government as it stands some good: the line-item veto, the elimination of unrelated riders from bills, and some fiscal responsibility measures.

[mxlm]

The thing is, you are advocating forgetting. You want to forget the flag. How else will anyone remember it except by display?

I suppose it's true that if people stopped flying the flag it would fade from popular consciousness. But, look, I got my BA in history; the popular consciousness forgets just about everything (and when it doesn't, it often insists on drawing painfully stupid 'lessons' from a painfully simplistic notion of what the historical events in question consisted of), so it's not really something I'm all that concerned with. I'm going to remember. Historians are going to remember. The general public won't, but the general public doesn't remember anything.

But fine, if you wish to censor history, that is your perogative. Just don't expect the rest of us to jump off the slippery slope after you.

I for one am absolutely not in favor of restricting the display of swastikas or the battleflag or the rising sun. Actually, I like it when individuals display them as it tells me quite a bit about those individuals. The same holds true for government buildings. Which is the point; when Joe Wilson votes against the removal of the flag, that tells me a lot about him. Especially when I consider that he was Thurmond's intern and attempted to smear Thurmond's illegitimate daughter.

When you see a random private citizen, not the Holocaust Museum, displaying a swastika, does that give you a reasonable basis upon which to make certain assumptions about that person? Do you make any assumptions about that person? What if rather than 'displaying' the swastika, they have it tattooed upon their bodies?

[General Battuta]

I should clarify. I have no problem with swastika/sun/flag displays on a legal level. But I fully endorse social taboos and condemnation against them.

[iamzack]

I don't favor banning any of these things on any level. I'm just stating what a confederate flag on a pick up in the south *actually* means as opposed to what we'd like to *think* it means. Context is very important. Confederate flag in a history book or flying over a Civil War memorial/landmark, fine. Confederate flag flying in front of the gas station down the street? I'm never ****ing going in there.

[mxlm]

Actually, I think there is an argument to be made that, much like the burning of crosses, the display of the flag or the swastika or whatever is intimidation, but it's much harder to argue that in all--or even most--situations that is the case. It's hard to find a situation where the KKK would burn a cross on a lawn that isn't a specific attempt to intimidate and threaten. In contrast, it's much easier to find situations in which someone has a battleflag or swastika or whatnot and is not attempting to threaten or intimidate a specific person or entire group, or at least can make a reasonable argument to that effect.

[iamzack]

Burning a cross on a lawn violates fire codes and such stuff.

But I agree it's certainly one (WBC-esque exercise in freedom of speech) thing to have a sticker on your truck and another (potentially illegal) thing entirely to leave a confederate flag on the doorstep of the black/Jewish/Hispanic/etc family down the street.

[Nuclear1]

I do agree with you ngtm1r for many a valid reason...the Confederate Flag shouldn't be looked on purely as a racist symbol.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to lean more towards IAZ and GB on this one.  You, me, and probably a fair number of intelligent people can spend hours debating the merits of the Dixie Flag, the good it did stand for at one time and why it should be admired to some extent.  Still...most of those people who are flying those flags now aren't looking that deep.  To them, the dumbass hicks who decorate their trucks with the flag and the ones who fly it over their shacks in the woods...it stands for racism.  Governments shouldn't endorse it, despite it being a significant part of their state history, because a frighteningly large number of their constituents are just that stupid---DRRRRRR DA SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN DRRRRR OBAMA IS KENYAN DRRRRR YALL WANT GRITS WITH THAT

So yes, put the Confederate flag up in a museum--we can't afford to forget the past.  Don't outlaw it--even if it is a symbol of racism to many, it has a more noble and honorable meaning to others.  Comparing the Swastika to the Dixie Flag is apples and oranges.

If there are Southerners still backwards and ignorant enough that they still want to live under a Confederate States of America where the black man is lesser than the white man, then so be it--they don't have to follow the rest of us into the 21st century.  But leave it be.  There still were thousands of Southern men who died purely out of love for Dixie, not even the racist policies it enforced, but to protect the lands of their forefathers and their children from a perceived threat of aggression--for some, not even as a result of their own actions or desires, just simply caught up in the circumstances.  Pissing on the memories of those men simply because they fought under a flag we don't like is the equivalent of pissing on the graves of good-hearted patriotic German soldiers who simply loved their homeland more than life.  Not all of them should be praised, no, hardly, but not all Nazi or Confederate soldiers were horned devils.

[General Battuta]

Fair enough, and having read a lot of Civil War stuff during some random phase, I can certainly sympathize with the desire to preserve some aspects of that memory.

[iamzack]

It's one of those things that just doesn't pan out in real life the way we'd like.

[mxlm]

Not all of them should be praised, no, hardly, but not all Nazi or Confederate soldiers were horned devils.

On that note you might want to make a distinction between Nazi soldiers and German soldiers

ETA: Actually, that reminds me of one of the (many) things that I liked about Inglorious Basterds (omg, spelling); no matter what these people did, they're still people, and revenge fantasies don't become less horrific if the people you're fantasizing about mutilating are total ****ing assholes.