[Snail]

Or we can just point out another flaw in Koth's plan. We've seen ships take quite massive amounts of damage and yet still be fully functional only a few missions later. Even if Koth had crippled the Colossus he'd only have put it out of action for a few days or weeks at most.

Now while that might have fit in perfectly with Bosch's plans it's a pretty stupid idea to do that to fit in with the NTF's objectives for the war.

Koth had no other choice as I see it - He could either surrender (bad), attempt to run the blockade (possibly good or bad) or just do something for fun.

[Thaeris]

Snail is absolutely correct.

No one in their right mind EVAR passes up the opportunity to give "RAMMING SPEED" as a command directive. 

[Snail]

No one in their right mind EVAR passes up the opportunity to give "RAMMING SPEED" as a command directive. 

I don't think you're in the right mind buddy!

[ChronoReverse]

IF an Orion is rammed by an Aten (1:100 size difference) and it does 30% hull damage...then how much hull damage would you expect if an Orion ramms a Colossuss (1:20 MAx size differnce).

What you mentioned earlier makes this a poor comparison, that is, scale.

Think about it.  If you have something small like a baseball slamming into another object, the baseball is small enough that you could model accurately the impact and impulse (transfer of momentum) as ideal point objects because the size is small enough that the transfer is, for practical purposes, instantaneous.

But as you scale up, this is no longer the case.  It's like if you had an extremely long metal rod.  If you swing the close end at a fraction of light-speed, the other edge won't exceed the speed of light because the transfer of momentum isn't actually instantaneous (and in fact the scenario will never work as the bar would bend until it either breaks or you run out of energy to force into it).  Similarly, with huge multiple kilometer objects, the full momentum of either ships cannot be brought into bear at the same time; simply put, they're not really solid objects in the common sense.

Plus the Orion is a lot slower, 1/2mv^2 and all.

[Ziame]

Not to mention that iirc that Aten was filled with explosives (correct me if I mixed up something)

[NGTM-1R]

You're not.

[Titan]

Aten was filled with explosives, and had it's reactor core going in a vain attempt to copy the last battle in Ender's game.

You also have to take into account the game (lol, pwned). There's no way they could (ingame) show the collie getting rammed the way it should have. they should have had and instant end mission straight to cutscene.

Another thing, the front part of the collie was f*cked, but the rear parts were probably pretty intact.

Also, I don't know about this, but what effect would the recoil have on this? I can't image the collie would be perfectly still in space. Wouldn't a lot of the energy be transfered into kinetic backwards force?

[deathfun]

Expanding on what was mentioned earlier

Scale doesn't matter.
Amount of kinetic energy does.

Since you [Trashman] seem to know enough about physics to kill someone in a hilarious fashion, you can then calculate the kinetic energy of the Aten, and the Orion. After comparing the two, find some information of how much explosives were loaded on to the Aten (IE - Find potential energy) [How would probably be to compare an impact of a normal Aten to Orion, and a normal anti-cap bomb to Orion]
[I would try to do this, but first I need to find the mission (after redoing them) in FS1, and same goes for FS2. Problem with that is I am not at my computer at this moment]

[Uchuujinsan]

if the Collie has 6 times the mass as an orion, it would have moved backwards by 2.5m/s after the collision.
Or:
m(Repulse)/m(Collie) * 15m/s = v(Collie)
15m/s is the speed of the repulse.

[stuart133]

Well it won't move back at that speed as the front end will absorb some of the energy. The conservation of momentum only applies if no force is applied.
But I have to say that I still don't think that the Collie would be badly damaged, the superstructure is far too tough, it is designed to take huge impacts and not be badly damaged, the Orion on the other hand is not, it, having been cut to ribbons by the BGreens, would crumple badly and absorb a lot of that energy.

[Uchuujinsan]

I made some oversimplifications.

Lower limit of Collie speed (minimum energy transfer into kinetic energy):
m(R)*v1(R) = m(C)*v + m(R)*v
v1(R) = (m(C)/m(R)+1)  *v
v= 15m/s*1/(6+1) = ~ 2,14 m/s for both the Collie and the Repulse after Collision.

Upper limit (maximum energy transfer into kinetic energy):
0,5 m(R)*v1(R)² = 0,5 m(R)*v2(R)² + 0,5 m(C)*v(C)² (ignoring momentum)
m(R)/m(C) * v1(R)² = v(C)²
(1/sqrt(6)) *15m/s = v(C)  = ~6,12m/s
If you factor in momentum, this limit will be further reduced.

The conservation of momentum only applies if no force is applied.

If no outside force is applied. There is no outside force, that's why it's a closed system. => conservation of momentum applies

[edit]
Maybe look at Newton's third law of motion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion
To clarify: If no energy is absorbed, we will have a completely elastic collision, like two rubber balls bouncing off of each other.

[stuart133]

Yeah, yeah sorry wasn't paying enough attention.

So what are you trying to say, how much damage will be caused by the collision?

[Uchuujinsan]

sry, as I wrote the post doing the first calculation, I tried to answer to Titans question:

Also, I don't know about this, but what effect would the recoil have on this? I can't image the collie would be perfectly still in space. Wouldn't a lot
of the energy be transfered into kinetic backwards force?

Maybe I should have quoted that before.

[TrashMan]

What you mentioned earlier makes this a poor comparison, that is, scale.

Actually no. The Aten istelf is like 250meters long. the point is htat internally, tehy are all structured the same..and the thickness of armor and supporting structure doesn't scale with size (cost and effectiveness). Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if and Orion has proportionally better structuring.
The Collie has the hitpoints of 10 Orions, but the volume of 20. That doesn't really scream super-huge uber armor, now does it?

Eitehr way, when they crash all of it is going down like a house of cards - especially since the Repule has got a overcharged reactor and lots of ordinance on board. I'd bet there's a at elast 200 cyclops boms on board.

But I digress. There's no way the Collie is getting out of with just a scratch on a paint job. It would still be "sea-worthy", but I wouldn't call the damage minimal.

How much HP's does the Collie loose when rammed? Aroud und 20%? that's not minimal damage.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Third Fleet HQ does it even better. "We've sustained minor damage" after losing 50% hull.

[ChronoReverse]

Actually no. The Aten istelf is like 250meters long. the point is htat internally, tehy are all structured the same..and the thickness of armor and supporting structure doesn't scale with size (cost and effectiveness). Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if and Orion has proportionally better structuring.

You're missing the point.  I talked about scale because of momentum transfer.  The entire post was about that.


As for the average toughness the smaller ships have it easier because they're not as cavernous, but the Colossus can tank beams.  You can take this in two ways: either the armor can eat it better or that the Colossus is using its structure to eat the damage.

Considering that the Colossus is purpose built for that sort of thing, that means that either way, the ship does not consider 20% in the HUD to be significant.  If it were armor damage, then obvious it's not a big issue.  If it were structural damage, then since it's an expected operating condition, it's not too huge a deal.

[Colonol Dekker]

Four letters, G. T. V. A......

The GTA probably needed to stablise itself, and latched onto the PVN which probably had holdings in Vasuda after the Shivans went useless after the Lucy was destroyed. But i would have thought the competetive spirit would have spurred us (Terrans) onto greater progress at a higher rate. Think about it, most of the great technological advances of the last century have been gleamed developed through modern warfare. From superglue to space travel. Without two guys getting miffed at each other this never would have happened...




Sorry if it sounds a bit Tolwyn from WC4, but i believe it when it comes to Xenos.. Not Humies, we should all be pals

[stuart133]

I'm not sure how much sense that made, I'm guessing your drunk Dekker.

[Colonol Dekker]

Far from it, i'm gasping here.............



But never on a weeknight i'm maturing. Waiting for Friday so i can get on it. Seriously though, i understand the whole "onoz shivans could come back at any time!!" motivation to forming the alliance, but i think we might have lost a bit of our edge....

[deathfun]

But I digress. There's no way the Collie is getting out of with just a scratch on a paint job. It would still be "sea-worthy", but I wouldn't call the damage minimal.

You just went back on what you said many pages ago

You said the Collie would have been completely destroyed.