[deathfun]

We don't know it's possible to make things appear into thin air

But maybe the Shivans do

[Scotty]

Kie:  Explain your edit to my third statement of fact.

The Lucifer has shields, to defeat it in realspace, you must pierce the shields.  Whether the shields are any good or hold up or ANYTHING like that is irrelevent.  To win, it must pierce shields, which is a fact.

As for the first:

With the offensive power that exceeded most GTVA battlegroups, the Colossus was designed to combat the Shivans upon their return to Allied territory. The prospective target was one or more Lucifer-class super-destroyers, and it was deemed that the Colossus would not only have the firepower not only to destroy such a foe, but also to survive multiple hits from a Lucifer's primary weapon system.

Backed up by

How would we fight the next threat to the very existence of our species?
...
If ever the Shivans return to threaten our worlds we will be ready to face the challenge

Remember that at the point this was said, the only threat to their "existence of our species" was the Lucifer, or the possibility of another.

[Droid803]

Uhm...so, how would the Colossus destroy the Lucifer without dealing with its shields.
Tell me.

Knocking out a quadrant or just frying the whole shield system with excess power essentially equates to piercing. Of course, it's piercing at different rates, but it's still having to go through the shields (by bringing it to the point of critical existence failure, yes, but it's getting through it).

[General Battuta]

Okay, look, the idea of Shivan ships developing by von Neumann process or from holographic components is just as likely as them being built.

No it isn't.  Shivan ships being built is more likely because we know that ships can be built, we don't know it's possible for von Neumann machines or holographic components to create ships.

Yes we do.

[Droid803]

What?
We know that holographic components can build ships? Who? Where? When? Why? How?

[Kie99]

Kie:  Explain your edit to my third statement of fact.

The Lucifer has shields, to defeat it in realspace, you must pierce the shields.  Whether the shields are any good or hold up or ANYTHING like that is irrelevent.  To win, it must pierce shields, which is a fact.

You don't need to defeat it in real-space.

As for the first:

With the offensive power that exceeded most GTVA battlegroups, the Colossus was designed to combat the Shivans upon their return to Allied territory. The prospective target was one or more Lucifer-class super-destroyers, and it was deemed that the Colossus would not only have the firepower not only to destroy such a foe, but also to survive multiple hits from a Lucifer's primary weapon system.

Backed up by

How would we fight the next threat to the very existence of our species?
...
If ever the Shivans return to threaten our worlds we will be ready to face the challenge

Remember that at the point this was said, the only threat to their "existence of our species" was the Lucifer, or the possibility of another.

Yes, and you can defeat a Lucifer by sending bombers after it from a ship with a vast hangar, or by following it into subspace and destroying it, preferably in a system with multiple nodes.

Uhm...so, how would the Colossus destroy the Lucifer without dealing with its shields.
Tell me.

The same way the Bastion did.

[General Battuta]

What?
We know that holographic components can build ships? Who? Where? When? Why? How?

You were made from holographic components. You're significantly more complex than a ship!

A technologically sophisticated civilization could have started using more sophisticated methods to generate its warships. 'Grown' doesn't mean 'born as a baby', it can mean 'procedurally assembled from smart components' or whatever.

[Droid803]

A technologically sophisticated civilization could have started using more sophisticated methods to generate its warships. 'Grown' doesn't mean 'born as a baby', it can mean 'procedurally assembled from smart components' or whatever.

Isn't that "built"?

[NGTM-1R]

The Colossus' stated purpose is to defeat a second Lucifer. You can speculate all you want, but they canonically said that's what it's for, and you're more or less screwed.

[General Battuta]

A technologically sophisticated civilization could have started using more sophisticated methods to generate its warships. 'Grown' doesn't mean 'born as a baby', it can mean 'procedurally assembled from smart components' or whatever.

Isn't that "built"?

Not if the components are self-assembling, no. Or if they're built by von Neumanns, in which case they arguably 'grow' from a seed.

[ChronoReverse]

If the the Colossus and its beams don't have some ability to penetrate the Lucifer's shields, then a couple of Orion or Hecate class destroyers chasing (since they have to track itinto subspace) the Lucifer would serve just as well in terms of blowing it up.  And they can build a lot more of those (quicker too) to guard all over instead having only a single Colossus.

At the very least, the design of the Colossus seems more oriented towards blockading a threat (hence the broadside configuration of beams and the ability to eat a lot of beams) meaning it would be sitting at the exit of a node waiting for its intended target.

[TrashMan]

Not if the components are self-assembling, no. Or if they're built by von Neumanns, in which case they arguably 'grow' from a seed.

VERY arguably. If you're gonna use the word "grow", then use it in a context most poeple would understand.

If shivans ships are built by VN's, they are still built, not grown.

Crystal theory is more sensible than organic entity, but it is still EXTREEMLY unlikely. Shivan ships are made out of metal. We KNOW this.

If tehy were organic or made out of some crazy crystals, someone, somewhere would have mention it - especially the piltos who fly in them.

And yes - the Colossuss must have been able to squash teh Lucifer. After all ,it was made to fight one or several Lucifers. It would be pretty idiotic to invest billions into a weapon system that isn't capable of defeating what is was designed to defeat - even for command.

[Ziame]

1) I agree with Kie99 on the statement, that the Colossus doesn't need to engage in Realspace... tho what for build a FRIGGIN 6KM SHIP if a bunch of bombers can deal with Lucifer anyway? (with Helioses even moar effectively
2) on "640 Lucifers >>>>> 80 Sathanas Juggernauts"(sp?) erm, that's ridiculous. you can't judge ships just because of their sheer effectiveness in BATTLE. It's kinda obvious that Lucifer is for one thing, and Sathanas for another.
Lucifer -> eradicating planets, command ship*, intimidation maybe  (*supported by the Shivans going nuts after it being destroyed)
Sathanas -> making supernovas, maybe some other kinds of subspace manipulation, blockade breaker? with these friggin beams at the front lol
that's for one thing

And another "Why other ships dun have shields lol?"
Well, here is a mystery really, tho' we can explain it somehow (*WARNING* *HIVE SHIVANZ ENSUING*) If we agree (for the sake of sense of this theory right here) that Shivans are some kind of hive mind (so one brain, countless minions, maybe couple of brains lol), then it's obvious that fighters/bombers get shields, because of their uselessness without them (boom, no wing), and Lucifer, as the Command Ship prolly has some kind of Shivan brain onboard, so it has to be shielded for the sake of war. And if you ask me why Ravana, Demon, Cain etc don't have shields: cause S have friggin lots of'em. And I think that shields on Sathanas would be overkill. Only races we know to survive clash with Shivans is GTVA, and GTVA has a LOT of problems dealing with only one... and they have manymanymany Sathanas Juggernauts.

End. I hope you can understand me engrish.

[TrashMan]

Didn't shivans need like, 80 of them to blow up the sun?

Lucifers seem like a far better investment. Again, strength in number and greater area coverage.
B.t.w. - 8 Lucifers would rape  a Sathanas.

[General Battuta]

Not if the components are self-assembling, no. Or if they're built by von Neumanns, in which case they arguably 'grow' from a seed.

VERY arguably. If you're gonna use the word "grow", then use it in a context most poeple would understand.

If shivans ships are built by VN's, they are still built, not grown.

Er, so you were built, then....?

It's semantics at that point.

[Ziame]

1.Didn't shivans need like, 80 of them to blow up the sun?

2.Lucifers seem like a far better investment. Again, strength in number and greater area coverage.

3.B.t.w. - 8 Lucifers would rape a Sathanas.

ad1. Well, Lucifer didn't blow any sun to begin with, so no comparison really
ad2. I didn't really get what you are trying to say
ad3. If beams don't penetrate shields then even one would rape a Sathanas, and if they do, well... 8 Orions would rape a Sathanas as well. 8 properly placed Sobeks would kill a Sathanas methinks.

And, as I said before, we are talking here about sheer battle effectiveness... we don't know the true purpose of Sathanas juggernauts or the Lucifer destroyer.
Just, logical thinking: if they'd NEED MOAR Lucifers they'd BUILD MOAR Lucifers, as they did with Jugs.

Lucifer is obviously a war vessel, Sathanas isn't too well prepared for fighting, as has been stated many times. It's good for cutting it's way through everything, but flank it from behind and good-bye Sathie.

[IronForge]

I pwnt the lucy with its own beam (with a cheat, just had to try it). So that means it CAN be trashed. You just need the same firepower of it to take it down.

[General Battuta]

Well, no you didn't, at least not in a canon scenario - because the Lucifer always has the 'invulnerable' flag checked. 

[Ziame]

I pwnt the lucy with its own beam (with a cheat, just had to try it). So that means it CAN be trashed. You just need the same firepower of it to take it down.

Well, no you didn't, at least not in a canon scenario - because the Lucifer always has the 'invulnerable' flag checked. 

hahaha, IronForge, pwnd! Don't try it with us :]

I guess crashing a moon into luci would kill it.

[Lucika]

I guess crashing a moon into luci would kill it.

Hey! Don't! It will cause tidal... DAMN THAT HURT!
My head!