[General Battuta]

Why do we have to introduce a new enemy, though? Who says the Shivans aren't the worst thing out there?

[Liberator]

Who says the Shivans aren't the worst thing out there?

[General Battuta]

Nope, they never said that. They said the Shivans were the symptoms of a much bigger problem.

lrn2freespace

[Droid803]

Which could mean anything really.
From even-more-eviller-aliens to end-of-the-universe...

[TrashMan]

It's not 'my solution' or 'my theory' or anything of the sort. It's just one reading of the text.

And you're still not getting it: the Shivans are not there to make friends or form alliances. They are there to kill species that are a threat to other species. If the species in question start working together, then the Shivans lose interest in them.

There is no reason the Shivans should care about the number of lives lost.

Except hte shivies still attack in fS2, were humies and the Zods are bussom buddies.

Except they contninued their attack in FS1, even after the GTA and PVN united.

So no, I don't see it as a credible theory.

[aurora_energy]

I thought the ancients would have destroyed humanity if the shivans had not stopped them. IDK i could be wrong, but if memory serves correct, the ancients force is a lot more deadly then that of the shivans. So i would agree that volution said so, unless someone says otherwise

[General Battuta]

Except hte shivies still attack in fS2, were humies and the Zods are bussom buddies.

No, actually, from a certain perspective, they don't. They are attacked in the nebula, and they venture into GTVA space to close off jump nodes by destroying Capella. "Leave us alone, you're not a valid target." And, ironically, they show up right when the NTF is causing trouble with the alliance! (This may have more to do with the NTF than with the Shivans, though.)

Except they contninued their attack in FS1, even after the GTA and PVN united.

They continued their attack until the Terrans and Vasudans actually worked together hard to stop them.

So no, I don't see it as a credible theory.

See above. There's nothing against it.

[Ziame]

I thought the ancients would have destroyed humanity if the shivans had not stopped them. IDK i could be wrong, but if memory serves correct, the ancients force is a lot more deadly then that of the shivans. So i would agree that volution said so, unless someone says otherwise

Ad.1 : if the ancient force is a lot more deadly thAn that of the shivans, then shivans lose methinks. But they kicked Ancient asses.
Ad.2. : What the hell is volution and what did they say?

[Droid803]

What aurora_energy is saying is in the ending cinematic of FS1.

Basically, its speculating that the Shivans destroy the destroyers. If the Shivans weren't around, the Ancients would have either enslaved or exterminated humanity in its infancy.

He obviously means Volition...

[aurora_energy]

Yeah what he said. Thanks Droid803

[Mav]

I thought the ancients would have destroyed humanity if the shivans had not stopped them. IDK i could be wrong, but if memory serves correct, the ancients force is a lot more deadly then that of the shivans. So i would agree that volution said so, unless someone says otherwise

Ad.1 : if the ancient force is a lot more deadly thAn that of the shivans, then shivans lose methinks. But they kicked Ancient asses.
Ad.2. : What the hell is volution and what did they say?

Ad.1) - More Deadly of intention, not of firepower.


@General Batutta:

I mostly agree - just keep in mind that that psychological phenomenon also can have nasty sideeffects... e.g. defamation & mobbing to keep "your" group behind you, rise in their ranks and the likes...


[edit:
Oh, someone mentioned the damage a Helios or Cyclops would do... don't forget that bombs have a shield factor of 0.02 !!

So, your average Helios would do a full 6800x0.02 = 68x2 = 136 points of AMAZING damage to the Lucy's shields! [/sarcasm]
Now consider that those shields might have at least as much hp as the hull of the Lucy, which is at 800000 if I remember correct.

So, to break through those shields (and usually, Shivan shields are TOUGHER than the accompanying hull in retail ships that have shields) , you'd need about 5883 Helios bombs, and that is only to leave a small dent in the hull AND it is counted without the recharge that would no doubt happen in the time you'd need to deliver all those bombs on target.
Thus, in essence, the Lucy's shields ARE invulnerable to bombs... And capship laser blobs would likely have similar problems as they don't do much more damage, although they can usually be delivered in greater numbers.

Beams, on the other hand, do lots of damage in one shot, with a shield factor of 1.0 . Thus, enough of them might overload the Lucy's shields, even if they would NOT be shield-piercing.
What you'd need for that is a huge load of beams, though, which can keep up firing for at least some time while being under attack from the Lucy - and that's EXACTLY what the Collie was designed to do.

So, ergo: NO need for beams to be shield-piercing.
]

[TrashMan]

No, actually, from a certain perspective, they don't. They are attacked in the nebula, and they venture into GTVA space to close off jump nodes by destroying Capella. "Leave us alone, you're not a valid target." And, ironically, they show up right when the NTF is causing trouble with the alliance! (This may have more to do with the NTF than with the Shivans, though.)

They were atacked in the nebule? WTF are you on?
They came from the portal and attacke. I don't remember anyone going in attacking them first.

Closing off jump nodeS? No, the blew up a sun. If all they wanted to do is close the 2 jump nodes, they could have done it with a lot less hassle. And why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?

They continued their attack until the Terrans and Vasudans actually worked together hard to stop them.

No, the Terran and Vasudans worked hard together to stop them at Vasuda. the shivis still continued on their genocidal spree. They would have waxed Earth too. If all they wanted was to see cooperation, then they would have turned around.

See above. There's nothing against it.

See above. There's everything agaisnt it.

[General Battuta]

Okay, again, one more time and in simple terms:

In this theory, the Shivans exist to destroy species that are a danger to other species. They provide a selection pressure for species to cooperate. Destroying the Lucifer was a test the Terrans and Vasudans had to pass, and if they hadn't, the Shivans would have glassed Earth and every other inhabited world.

The Shivans are the third party in a Robber's Cave scenario.

They were atacked in the nebule? WTF are you on?
They came from the portal and attacke. I don't remember anyone going in attacking them first.

The Trinity entered the portal into Shivan space; presumably the Shivans defended themselves and moved aggressively to figure out what was going on.

Closing off jump nodeS? No, the blew up a sun. If all they wanted to do is close the 2 jump nodes, they could have done it with a lot less hassle. And why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?

The Shivans may have viewed Capella as more suitable, and the supernova process may be more reliable than simple node cauterization. Or they may have just wanted another good nebula. It's all speculation.

This theory is actually one of the most strongly endorsed by FS canon, going by the FS1 outro. There is no disconfirming evidence present.

[TrashMan]

The Trinity entered the portal into Shivan space; presumably the Shivans defended themselves and moved aggressively to figure out what was going on.

Yes, because sending a single cruiser to try to establish contact is a clear act of agression. A single cruiser! Surely hte shivna collective is in great peril!

The Shivans may have viewed Capella as more suitable, and the supernova process may be more reliable than simple node cauterization. Or they may have just wanted another good nebula. It's all speculation.

This theory is actually one of the most strongly endorsed by FS canon, going by the FS1 outro. There is no disconfirming evidence present.

Lol. Most stongly endorsed my ass. Well, maybe in your head, but lets look at reality for a second.

To close themselves off from the GTVA  all they had to do was collapse ONE node in GD. Yet they go  to Capella, that has 3 nodes that need collapsing. Since they are masters of subspace, they should surely be capable of collapsing a node with a single destroyer, like the GTVA can.
But no - insted they send 80 Jugs for such a simple operation.

So either shivans are insane, utterly incompetent/inefficient, or the Capella destruction was not done to close off nodes. Take your pick.

[General Battuta]

We're arguing for the sake of arguing here. We have no idea who's correct on any of these points, and there's no point fighting.

The Shivans could have flipped a **** at the sight of a single cruiser because they are purely automatic in their behavior. They could have supernovaed Capella instead of Gamma Draconis because Gamma Draconis was not a suitable star for the process and single-node cauterization (GTVA style) is not permanent or effective enough for them. Or they wanted a new nebula.

See, I'm arguing that this theory is one of many that's possible. You're arguing...er, something. I'm not sure.

[Ziame]

Trinity ventured into Shivan space... so they thought "You have NO business here, GTVA!"...


Maybe the Capella was... a punishment? It is said that Capella is omgawesome for Terrans.
Coincidence?

[Vip]

Trinity ventured into Shivan space... so they thought "You have NO business here, GTVA!"...


Maybe the Capella was... a punishment? It is said that Capella is omgawesome for Terrans.
Coincidence?

Somebody from another country steps onto your property, so you nuke that guy's country (or at least the city he comes from). Happens only in FreeSpace and USA

But yeah, I'm fairly sure that Trinity was the initial reason for the Shivan incursion. Perhaps they thought exactly like the GTVA did ? "ZOMFG, a portal that was dormant for millenias is now operating in the middle of our territory and ships are pouring through it. Let's secure the area."

Also, I don't think that Trinity was the only ship that entered the nebula. Remember Terran debris floating around and mention of an attack ? Seriously, do you think that a single Fenris would withstand a Shivan attack long enough ? My theory is that several cruisers, perhaps even a corvette went past the portal and they got pwned. Trinity managed to flee from the battle in the middle of chaos and shut down non-essential system to avoid being detected. Or something like this.

[Ziame]

Trinity ventured into Shivan space... so they thought "You have NO business here, GTVA!"...


Maybe the Capella was... a punishment? It is said that Capella is omgawesome for Terrans.
Coincidence?

Somebody from another country steps onto your property, so you nuke that guy's country (or at least the city he comes from). Happens only in FreeSpace and USA

But yeah, I'm fairly sure that Trinity was the initial reason for the Shivan incursion. Perhaps they thought exactly like the GTVA did ? "ZOMFG, a portal that was dormant for millenias is now operating in the middle of our territory and ships are pouring through it. Let's secure the area."

Also, I don't think that Trinity was the only ship that entered the nebula. Remember Terran debris floating around and mention of an attack ? Seriously, do you think that a single Fenris would withstand a Shivan attack long enough ? My theory is that several cruisers, perhaps even a corvette went past the portal and they got pwned. Trinity managed to flee from the battle in the middle of chaos and shut down non-essential system to avoid being detected. Or something like this.

I meant punishment more in the way the god punishes puny humans.

[NGTM-1R]

Yes, because sending a single cruiser to try to establish contact is a clear act of agression. A single cruiser! Surely hte shivna collective is in great peril!

No, you dip****. They send a single cruiser and the single cruiser's like "holycrap SHIVVVVVAAAAANS" and then it opens fire on the Shivan patrol who just wanted to scan it.

And we have an act of war. And the Shivans aren't going to take it lying down.

Or did that possiblity not occur to you?

To close themselves off from the GTVA  all they had to do was collapse ONE node in GD.

Collapsing a node is an operation that they know will be ineffective, because the Terrans have a Knossos, so they probably have the knowledge to reopen the nodes. It's not sufficent to collapse a node, and we're not even sure a destroyer couldn't survive a young supernova nebula to boot, so it's not sufficent merely to blow up Gamma Drac either.

You have to scare the GTVA to get them to leave you alone. Capella did that extremely effectively.

[TrashMan]

See, I'm arguing that this theory is one of many that's possible. You're arguing...er, something. I'm not sure.

Possible? Yes. But many things are possible. TI's is possible that a wizzad did it all.

Probable? Not really.

No, you dip****. They send a single cruiser and the single cruiser's like "holycrap SHIVVVVVAAAAANS" and then it opens fire on the Shivan patrol who just wanted to scan it.

You mean the same Trinity Bosch sent into the nebula to make contact with the shivans? The same shivans that have the "shoot first, ask no questions later" policy?
So, either Bosch is utterly stupid for sending a captain for a contact mission wihtout telling the captain, or sending an incompetent captain that opened fire first.

Collapsing a node is an operation that they know will be ineffective, because the Terrans have a Knossos, so they probably have the knowledge to reopen the nodes. It's not sufficent to collapse a node, and we're not even sure a destroyer couldn't survive a young supernova nebula to boot, so it's not sufficent merely to blow up Gamma Drac either.

They KNOW? How do they know what we know? We found an ancient Knossos, the'res no way for shivans to know if we have the means to rebuild it - that's even assuming we'd want to.
Not to mention you make it sound like the shivans fear us. Way to rob them of all of theri mojo.