[General Battuta]

What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?

You have a severe problem with scale.

That's exactly what the ants are saying!

[NGTM-1R]

That's exactly what the ants are saying!

I doubt it. Luis's scale problem is in equating killing few with killing many.

[General Battuta]

That's exactly what the ants are saying!

I doubt it. Luis's scale problem is in equating killing few with killing many.

I dunno, we've wiped out a number of species and we don't seem too bothered about it. I can see what he's going for.

[NGTM-1R]

Yes, which is why he should say that rather than use an ants analogy that's easily countered.

[Droid803]

Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.

Perhaps this could be done by making a ship that uses the missile model (or even a different model, for example a missile attached to subspace drive module) and launching it using a fighterbay patches or some kind of FRED trick. It wouldn't most likely work for ship launched SSMs, but for those launched from some kind of static platforms, it might (BP ones seem to be the of former kind though).

Make them local SSMs.
Have them warp out, then warp back in to hit a "target" with a set amount of HP (maybe a cargo container a billion km out).
Shot down SSMs won't hit it, but ones that aren't intercepted will.
Thus you can keep track of how many missiles made it out by some math on how much damage the target took.

[-Norbert-]

That's pretty much what I had in mind too, though I didn't think of using "ships" instead of weapons as SSMs.

Me? I think what they do is wrong. That doesn mean they are necessarily evil, though wiping out entire planets, sunsystems and races is hard to justify. Especially since they didn't even try to communicate (or at least didn't put enough effort into it that Humans and Vasudans were able to even notice it).

Notice, all this is human values, not shivan nor "alien". What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?

Apart from the bold red part, that I wanted to bring to your attention again, there is a difference between Humans and ants. The only way I know of that Humans can "communicate" with ants is, putting down a trail of pheromons to make them go on exactly that rout.
As Bosch showed communication between Humans and Shivans is possible. You won't be able to build starships and inhabit several starsystems without being an intelligent species, so the Shivans know they are fighting intelligent species. Since they don't kill us out of ignorange, that leaves either a higher goal (the most likely one in the BP setting), profiteering or sadism/classical "the galaxy belongs to us, wipe out the lesser species" kind of alien. The latter two are just wrong, no matter how you put it.
So the only ambiguity is the "higher goal", but what goal could be worth so much bloodshed, including all the Shivans that died during the two wars?
Now notice how I ask what goal could be worth it, instead of saying no goal is worth it! Even though I think it's very unlikely, there is the possibility of them being justified or even right.

I dunno, we've wiped out a number of species and we don't seem too bothered about it. I can see what he's going for.

Yes we did and it is just as wrong as the Shivans wiping out species (even more so, since it's not fictional). In some cases it happened out of ignorance, when we destroyed their habitats, in other cases it was even deliberate and in yet other cases they died out for profit. And killing off a whole species for short term profit is definately evil. Even though I dislike using the word evil most of the time, here it fits.

[Luis Dias]

No analogy is perfect. Don't burn me over it .

Me? I think what they do is wrong. That doesn mean they are necessarily evil, though wiping out entire planets, sunsystems and races is hard to justify. Especially since they didn't even try to communicate (or at least didn't put enough effort into it that Humans and Vasudans were able to even notice it).

Do I need to underline the "hard to justify" part? You may be having problems getting a justification for shivan actions, but I really doubt that the shivans will be so puzzled about it. I'm not saying that the shivans aren't "evil". I'm saying that this concept of "evilness" is human. Shivans could be amazingly puzzled by this concept alone.

Notice, all this is human values, not shivan nor "alien". What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?

Apart from the bold red part, that I wanted to bring to your attention again, there is a difference between Humans and ants. The only way I know of that Humans can "communicate" with ants is, putting down a trail of pheromons to make them go on exactly that rout.

And instead of doing so, you kill'em. You, sir, are a monster!

As Bosch showed communication between Humans and Shivans is possible.

Yes.

You won't be able to build starships and inhabit several starsystems without being an intelligent species, so the Shivans know they are fighting intelligent species.

Another human concept, one that I find extremely vague and troublesome. Are dolphins intelligent? Are elephants intelligent? Or do we say intelligence is what exists when beings talk to each other? Or make maths? Build buildings? But here we are just discussing human achievements. What do we know about the possibilities of different "intelligences" landscapes?

Why not a species that regard communication as cumbersome, stupid, innefficient, pollution?

Since they don't kill us out of ignorange, that leaves either a higher goal (the most likely one in the BP setting), profiteering or sadism/classical "the galaxy belongs to us, wipe out the lesser species" kind of alien. The latter two are just wrong, no matter how you put it.

Coz you say so? I'm extremely convinced by your argument there, "are just wrong", period. Yeah.

They could be doing something similar to what we do when we see an animal in pain and about to die, we shoot it. Perhaps they see in us only painful beings who are on the verge of self-destruct, why not spare us the misery? There could be endless possibilities, all you require is a good writer, and that's something more difficult to have .

So the only ambiguity is the "higher goal", but what goal could be worth so much bloodshed, including all the Shivans that died during the two wars?
Now notice how I ask what goal could be worth it, instead of saying no goal is worth it! Even though I think it's very unlikely, there is the possibility of them being justified or even right.

You're obsessed with this human thing called "morality". Until you drive out all these human institutions you'll begin to understand, not what the shivans are doing, but an endless and rich landscape of opportunities. I don't buy, for instance, the idea of "unintelligibility", I think it's a contradiction in itself, I think everything is intelligible, it may just be so hard to understand.

Consider, for instance, that the fact you consider X evil is exactly the reason why war between you and X is inevitable.

I dunno, we've wiped out a number of species and we don't seem too bothered about it. I can see what he's going for.

Yes we did and it is just as wrong as the Shivans wiping out species (even more so, since it's not fictional). In some cases it happened out of ignorance, when we destroyed their habitats, in other cases it was even deliberate and in yet other cases they died out for profit. And killing off a whole species for short term profit is definately evil. Even though I dislike using the word evil most of the time, here it fits.

Look, I'm not saying it isn't evil. What I AM saying is that "evil" is a human idea. It may come as a completely ridiculous one by the Shivans.

[General Battuta]

Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.

Perhaps this could be done by making a ship that uses the missile model (or even a different model, for example a missile attached to subspace drive module) and launching it using a fighterbay patches or some kind of FRED trick. It wouldn't most likely work for ship launched SSMs, but for those launched from some kind of static platforms, it might (BP ones seem to be the of former kind though).

Make them local SSMs.
Have them warp out, then warp back in to hit a "target" with a set amount of HP (maybe a cargo container a billion km out).
Shot down SSMs won't hit it, but ones that aren't intercepted will.
Thus you can keep track of how many missiles made it out by some math on how much damage the target took.

I was thinking about this, but how to get a capship to fire turret weapons at a specific target a billion KM away?

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Increase weapon range?

[General Battuta]

Increase weapon range?

I think you just totally missed the point.

You might be able to fake it by turret-tag-only'ing the SSM turrets and then SEXP tagging the decoy target.

[ssmit132]

Don't know if it should go here, but I was playing around with a mission I made, and I noticed that the Sidhe is extremely powerful at close range (I could easily annihilate Uhlans right up close), and is still pretty potent at range if the target gets hit by some of the bolts - was that intended, or will it be toned down for the next release if it's allowed for player use?

[SD-Beast]

Firstly, I would like to say that BP is, perhaps one of the top tier campaigns I've played yet (and my favorite.), excellent job, guys!  What I would love to see is more "decapitation" attempts by the GTVA, I'd love to see Serkr Team make a move at one of the three Solaris' destroyers.

One thing I noticed during the mission "Ken" was

Spoiler:

Steele talking about something or someone entering through dreams, could it be that he has the same gift Laporte does?

[General Battuta]

Thank you! Glad you liked it.

Don't know if it should go here, but I was playing around with a mission I made, and I noticed that the Sidhe is extremely powerful at close range (I could easily annihilate Uhlans right up close), and is still pretty potent at range if the target gets hit by some of the bolts - was that intended, or will it be toned down for the next release if it's allowed for player use?

The Sidhe is pretty badass, especially in a 4-gun bank. It will probably be restricted to the Ainsarii and may have its damage tweaked.

[DarthWang]

Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.

Perhaps this could be done by making a ship that uses the missile model (or even a different model, for example a missile attached to subspace drive module) and launching it using a fighterbay patches or some kind of FRED trick. It wouldn't most likely work for ship launched SSMs, but for those launched from some kind of static platforms, it might (BP ones seem to be the of former kind though).

Make them local SSMs.
Have them warp out, then warp back in to hit a "target" with a set amount of HP (maybe a cargo container a billion km out).
Shot down SSMs won't hit it, but ones that aren't intercepted will.
Thus you can keep track of how many missiles made it out by some math on how much damage the target took.

I was thinking about this, but how to get a capship to fire turret weapons at a specific target a billion KM away?

Is it even possible to put things at such distances in FRED?

[General Battuta]

Maybe not quite that far but you can go pretty damn far.

Actually...yeah, maybe that far.

[Asteroth]

My brother once figured out how far the engine could support. The distance was equivalent to several orders of magnitude beyond the observable universe. After not very far though, errors and inconsistencies prevent any sort of serious gameplay.

[DarthWang]

If you put something that far out no one will ever see it anyway so you should have no problem making it a Gargant, right?

[kaloonzu]

Didn't get a chance to see if this was already posted, but I felt it was important enough to jump right to the point:
     In 18 months of war, you think the GTVA would have realized that they needed to upgrade/improve/refit their ships to deal with UEF strikecraft. Perhaps improved blob turrets or replacement with sentry-gun like equipment should be implemented in game. Or maybe even go for an entirely new system on the Alliance warships.

[General Battuta]

Didn't get a chance to see if this was already posted, but I felt it was important enough to jump right to the point:
     In 18 months of war, you think the GTVA would have realized that they needed to upgrade/improve/refit their ships to deal with UEF strikecraft. Perhaps improved blob turrets or replacement with sentry-gun like equipment should be implemented in game. Or maybe even go for an entirely new system on the Alliance warships.

You'll see entirely new systems and some generally improved turret weapons, as well as (probably) new strikecraft. Also bear in mind the Nyx and Atalanta are to a degree already outfitted for UEF-fighting.

[Qent]

My brother once figured out how far the engine could support. The distance was equivalent to several orders of magnitude beyond the observable universe. After not very far though, errors and inconsistencies prevent any sort of serious gameplay.

Eventually you start fleeing for your life from phantom fighters and crazed corvette captains.