Author Topic: viper controls:  (Read 8482 times)

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Offline torc

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hi! i've got a  new set of saitek x52 pro and rudder pedals... the question is: do you think pedals should move the turn axis like real world (wich is more complicated) or the bank axis? anyone have experience?  thanks
indossare una divisa può avere un prezzo alto...ma a volte...è troppo alto!!! Bill Adama

 
in BTRL the rudder controls controlled the bank axis.
But I really didn't like that, I couldn't fly and I didn't see how you could change it  :nervous:.
And I think it isn't more difficult when the rudder pedals control the turn axis.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 07:00:20 am by kedrednael »

 

Offline newman

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You can change it the same way you would in fs2. You can modify which joystick axis does what. To answer your question, torc, it's really down to personal preference. Since there aren't any real space fighters there's also no correct - or wrong - way of doing this, so whatever works best for you.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 07:04:38 am by newman »
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Roll, pitch, and yaw. :P

 

Offline Sushi

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I'm pretty sure that actual space fighters feature a keyboard, a mouse, and WASD. :p

 

Offline Vip

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I'm pretty sure that actual space fighters feature a keyboard, a mouse, and WASD. :p

Nope, space fighters would run on some pimped-but-bugged-as-hell edition of Windows and would feature the X-Box pad as the recommended controller for full experience in space battles.
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline Angelus

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Meh. Get yourself a Wii controller, and you're ready to roll.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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I'm pretty sure that actual space fighters feature a keyboard, a mouse, and WASD. :p

Nope, space fighters would run on some pimped-but-bugged-as-hell edition of Windows and would feature the X-Box pad as the recommended controller for full experience in space battles.




This felt somehow appropriate.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline newman

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Meh. Get yourself a Wii controller, and you're ready to roll.

Blasphemy! Though shall not speak of such foul things when a HOTAS joystick is required.
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline Ace

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The game will require an X-Box controller.

Similarly all artwork will be "hot-rodded" to ensure 10million downloads. All humaniform Cylons will have horns.

Raiders will also spill copious amounts of XXXtreme blood and the entire soundtrack will be Metallica.

Why? Because if it's good enough for Bioware's marketing it's good enough for us!
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Stupid human meatbags, its obvious you play Diaspora by slitting your wrist open and running some multimode fiber optic cable up into your arm.

Oh and you better not try to add a multimode connector to your arm, thats for frakking posers.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 05:24:02 pm by StarSlayer »
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Shivan Hunter

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Offline Snagger

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in BTRL the rudder controls controlled the bank axis.
But I really didn't like that, I couldn't fly and I didn't see how you could change it  :nervous:.
And I think it isn't more difficult when the rudder pedals control the turn axis.
I set it up with roll controlled by the stick and yaw controlled by the rudder on my X36.  Having it the other way around seems to be the gaming standard (X-Wing and it's successors are like that), but it's counter intuitive to anyone who has ever flown aircraft.  However, I found myself then needing to use a lot of rudder inputs in BTRL, so perhaps the standard configuration suits the game well for most users.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Yeah, unlike a real aircraft, the FreeSpace/general space sim control paradigm usually requires a heck of a lot more yawing than rolling.  I could never imagine playing FS with the twist axis on my joystick set to yaw.

 

Offline Cobra

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I tried it once. It was.... different. A little more fun, but different.
To consider the Earth as the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field of millet, only one grain will grow. - Metrodorus of Chios
I wept. Mysterious forces beyond my ken had reached into my beautiful mission and energized its pilots with inhuman bomb-firing abilities. I could only imagine the GTVA warriors giving a mighty KIAAIIIIIII shout as they worked their triggers, their biceps bulging with sinew after years of Ivan Drago-esque steroid therapy and weight training. - General Battuta

 
I wonder what exactly it is about space sims that makes yawing more intuitive than rolling, while rolling works best in atmospheric flight sims. Maybe its because flight sims have aerodynamics so you can't practically turn by yawing. Or possibly the horizon helps you keep your bearings while banking into turns, but the lack of any definite up or down makes it too easy to get disoriented while rolling around in space sims.

 

Offline Swifty

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I think it has more to do with the accessibility and the gameplay mechanics of the space combat genre than anything else. In a space "sim", everything is much more faster paced, the ships fly like UFOs, everybody can pull +9G, and ships have tank armor plating plus shields. Designers will likely feel the need to make it easier to aim and will thus make pitch and yaw the primary degrees of freedom in order for players to naturally line up shots. Thus, yaw is jerky fast fast.

In a flight sim or even a flight combat game like Ace Combat or HAWX, it's much faster speeds, more fragile fighters, comparably less agile fighters (especially if energy bleeding is present in the flight model), and higher rates of fire. The slow rudder control tends to balance things out which makes pilots have to work harder to get in the same plane of bank and get a good trigger down.

It would be interesting if someone made a space combat game with the same gameplay characteristics as an air combat game. Then banking to turn while having a gimped yaw probably wouldn't feel so out of place.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 11:36:13 pm by Swifty »

 

Offline MR_T3D

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I think it has more to do with the accessibility and the gameplay mechanics of the space combat genre than anything else. In a space "sim", everything is much more faster paced, the ships fly like UFOs, everybody can pull +9G, and ships have tank armor plating plus shields. Designers will likely feel the need to make it easier to aim and will thus make pitch and yaw the primary degrees of freedom in order for players to naturally line up shots. Thus, yaw is jerky fast fast.

In a flight sim or even a flight combat game like Ace Combat or HAWX, it's much faster speeds, more fragile fighters, comparably less agile fighters (especially if energy bleeding is present in the flight model), and higher rates of fire. The slow rudder control tends to balance things out which makes pilots have to work harder to get in the same plane of bank and get a good trigger down.

It would be interesting if someone made a space combat game with the same gameplay characteristics as an air combat game. Then banking to turn while having a gimped yaw probably wouldn't feel so out of place.
to  be honest, in space, I like yaw and pitch instead of roll and pitch, but the more fragile fighters and less agile, making killing bursts more frequent once on tail is something I too like, and think *this* mod/game/thing should work like such.

 

Offline Snagger

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It's because an aeroplane turns by rolling its lift axis - even if the rudder was powerful enough to deliver yaw rates that were comparable to the elevators' pitch rates, the lack of vertical aerofoils around the aircraft's CoG would result in an enormous turning circle while the fuselage tries to act as a lifting body.

In space, since you have no atmosphere, similar pitch and yaw rates would give similar turn rates and circles in both axis.

The real problem, though, would be the g-forces.  Humans can tolerate a fair amount of positive g in their vertical axis (positive pitch or vertical accelerations), but not much lateral.  So, in real space combat, you'd still need to roll and yaw to avoid breaking the pilot's neck or bruising their brain on the inside of the skull from high yawing and side vectoring forces. 

For what it's worth, designs like the Viper are very good in principle - the cockpit is slightly forward of the CoG, so the rotational and linear swings of any attitude change in pitch or yaw will be in the same sense (ie pitch up and the cockpit rises about the CoG, yaw left and the cockpit will rotate and swing left).  The Blackbird would be horrible with e cockpit so far aft - the opposite rotational and translational movements (pitch up give up rotation but downward swing of cockpit, and left yaw swings cockpit to right) would be disorientating and vomit inducing, while craft with the cockpit right at the front (like Ralph McQuarrie's original Raider concept) would be subject to very high cockpit g forces just from the swing motion, never mind the change in velocity vector.  Then there are fighters like X-wings, whose long, heavy wings would vastly reduce roll rates and long nose reduce pitch rates, and TIE fighters, whose wing inertia would cost them a vast amount of manoeuvrability (as well as visibility).  Compare that to the Vipers' stubby wings and relatively short nose, and you'll see the only SW fighter that makes any sense is the A-Wing.

 
The Blackbird would be horrible with e cockpit so far aft - the opposite rotational and translational movements (pitch up give up rotation but downward swing of cockpit, and left yaw swings cockpit to right) would be disorientating and vomit inducing

To be fair, they specifically mentioned exactly that when they built it. It's why they changed it from being a home-made fighter to a home-made recon ship. Since they couldn't really turn it, they just made it as fast as they could going straight ahead.