[papachulo10]

Do you think by any chance that the GTVA would consider building another Colossus?  If so what changes and what would you name it? I love the name Agamemnon (you guys just gotta wonder where i got that one lol!)

[karajorma]

A lot of people hate the colossus but I don`t think it's as bad as everyone makes out.

The original colossus took too long to build. 20 years is far too long to build a ship like that. However the colossus was built in secret and no doubt required a lot of research. Neither the Terrans or Vasudans had ever built a ship that large. It's a reasonable bet that it needed a new kind of reactor or jump engine. If one of these couldn`t be built using present technology it is posssible that the colossus project got delayed for 5 or even 10 years while the problem was sorted (thereby accounting for the colossus' ridiculous build time).

Although ineffective against shivan juggernauts the colossus is a powerful ship. Remember that the colossus and it's battlegroup broke the back of the NTF in a very short amount of time (something the GTVA had failed to do for 18 months).

 Secondly the colossus is a powerful figurehead regardless of it's military might. Rebels would surrender rather than face it. Friendly ships would rally round it if a battle went badly.


 Whether the GTVA would build another depends on the build time.  Compare the colossus with the equivalent power in destroyers. Suppose the colossus is as powerful as 3 destroyers (haven't tested it yet. ) then if it longer to build than 3 destroyers it isn`t worth it (building 3 destroyers gives you more options, you can split them up or send them in as a task force).

  If the colossus can be built in the same time as the equivalent power in destroyers the GTVA would probably build one. Even though less flexable than a group of destroyers the morale boost and political value would make it worth building.

If the colossus can be build in less time than the equivalent then the GTVA would probably commission 2 or 3 (so as to not have all their eggs in one basket).

The last option is that there is already a second half built colossus. The GTVA might have decided to build more than one anyway. Even if the colossus is less powerful than expected it's probably worth a year or two's work to finish it rather than go to the effort of junking it.

Anyway. Enough of defending everyones favourite punchbag. I'll let the flamers have their turn

[LtNarol]

my views:

Reasons why the Colossus sucked the big one:
1. big
2. slow
3. clumsy
4. rediculously little firepower for its size and crew
5. turns funny and wacks everything infront of it; doesnt even inter hyperspace right

Reasons why it was good:
1. symbol of GTVA power (and ego)
2. more power than any other GTVA vessel, more than suited to taking on conventional Shivan warships.
3. bigass fighter complement

What would be better strategically
1. 5 Orion destroyers because they have more firepower, less crew, and are far more maneuverable.
2. 40 Aoelus cruisers because they have more firepower still and far less crew; not to mention a lot more maneuverablitiy.

in a nutshell, the Colossus makes for a better symbol than it does a warship.

[Kellan]

The Colossus actually only had 30,000 crew. 5 Orions would have 50,000 or thereabouts.

But you point still stands. Super-ships in that sense are something reserved for Shivans. Why try and beat them at their own game? The other thing to say for having 5 destroyers is that when one is destroyed, you still have the firepower of 4 remaining. Although you can turn that around and say it's firing with all guns until the moment it's destroyed, meaning there is more firepower overall with a Colossus.

BTW, I did a test. The Colossus is more than capable of taking on 5 Orions.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by LtNarol
in a nutshell, the Colossus makes for a better symbol than it does a warship.

I definately wouldn`t agree with that.

As I said the colossus ended the NTF rebellion. You think it did that by just looking good? The colossus destroyed the Repulse and was barely scratched. In fact the only ships able to do any appreciable damage the colossus were the two sathanas'

As kellan said the colossus can take on 5 orions. If it can be built for less that makes it worth building.

[Tar-Palantir]

Why does every think the Colossus was built in secret? A project like that was surely inspire pride, resasurence about that the GTVA could counter the Shivans if they returned etc etc. This is the sort of information that I would want Joe Public to know. Okay the cutscene says the following information is 'Level Rho', but that could just mean the information on weapon systems, fighter complement and the like.

One advantage that a supercap has it that's its 'bomber-proof'. Indervial weapon turrets are vunrable, but only other large ships are capable of destroying it, unless they wish to do a Hades on it.

Also the Colossus was designed to counter Demons, Lucifers, Cains, Lilths and other as yet unknown Shivan cruisers and destroyers. That the Shivans would have at least 80 ships of comparible size might not have occured to them. Also, they might assume that the Shivans would not have beam weaponay (except for the Lucifer) so the Col would be able to taken them down quickly with the minium of damage.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Why does every think the Colossus was built in secret?

The cutscene basically explains as much. It goes on about how khonsu (sp?) came up with the idea and announced it to the GTVA.
 Secondly when it first appears command introduce you to it. Would they really do that if it was a well known project?
 Everything points to the colossus' first appearance in the game being the first time that everyone had heard of it.

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
One advantage that a supercap has it that's its 'bomber-proof'. Indervial weapon turrets are vunrable, but only other large ships are capable of destroying it, unless they wish to do a Hades on it.

 Since the colossus is in one place it's easier to defend than several destroyers (which would be spread out over a wider area). That makes it even harder to kill using bombers.

I think the big problem with the colossus is that there are no missions where we really saw it in action. In the first mission it appears it takes out a single deimos. In the mission where it gaurds the knossos it gets sabotaged and is unable to attack the Iceni and in the final mission it's already disabled and unable to launch fighters.
 We never got to see the colossus with the kid gloves off so a lot of people assume that it's weaker than it actually is.

[Gloriano]

second colossus could be too old in 20 years

[Kazashi]

While the Colossus did die somewhat easily when facing a fully armed Sathanas, I wonder how things would have gone had there been more than one Colossus-class vessel. One of the reasons the Colossus did die was because it was always made a target. The NTF targeted it because it was new, big, a symbol of pride and GTVA dominance. It faced its fair share of battles because it was the biggest thing the GTVA had, so if they came across a heavy situation, they sent it in.

Now, if there were more than one super large vessel, they could be spread around. It would be a lot harder to sabotage several Colossus vessels, if one gets heavily damaged in a fight another one can be called in from elsewhere. No more having to carry battle damage that would take months to repair into one fight after another. Add to that the fact that a few Colossi in battle together would be quite a mighty force for even the Shivans to contend with.

Of course, there would be the problem of obtaining enough resources to build half a dozen of them. It probably wouldn't take 20 years to build another since you've already got the base plans to work from, so that could be one plus. But as a lot of people mention, it would be possible to build half a dozen destroyer class vessels instead.

[Stunaep]

The Colossus was built to counter the Shivan superdestroyer Lucifer, and was later on used to defeat the NTF. I for one, do not believe that the GTVA would create another one, after seeing what the Sathanas can do (btw, whats with the plural 'sathanii'), they would bother to make another. It would be wiser to consider other technologies (a dreadnought perhaps, or better stationary beam weapons,  a la Mjolnir, which were VERY powerful, even for Shivan standards), than rebuilding something completely useless against a Sathanas.

[##UnknownPlayer##]

I think the GTVA, while not necessarily building another Colossus would embark on another giant ship building project. However the next time I reckon they would make their new juggernaut more of a fortress then the Colossus was - in particular they would probably focus on ablative armor against beams (to counter sathanas ability for damage) and focussing more Colossus beams towards its front so it has a better chance of taking on a Sath. and winning. The way I'd do it would have beam groups, so I can either power up an even distribution of beams or power up a giant cluster at the front. I think the GTVA would also probably omit putting laser turrets on the ship (because they're amazingly useless - long range flak guns all the way).

[CP5670]

karajorma basically summed up for thoughts on the subject.

Regarding the firepower of the Colossus, remember that its purpose was to take down groups of smaller ships; as far the designers knew, it completely dwarfed every other ship in existence, and there was no point in mounting all of the weapons in the front since it would be able to take down any other thing with just a couple of beam cannons. The existence of the Sathanas was not known until after the Colossus had already been deployed in the field.

As with UnknownPlayer, I also think that they will build some sort of super-warship once again in the future, because whatever the Colossus' flaws, it did take down at least three major NTF destroyers (along with at least 20 corvettes and cruisers) as well as a Sathanas juggernaut. I would say that the Colossus and its fleet effectively won the NTF war; aside from the 13th Battle Group which secured Sirius (and even then, on the second try), no other GTVA unit comes even close to matching the amount of damage the superdestroyer dished out against the NTF. (heck, it probably did more damage as all the other units combined) It also boosted popular morale immensely, an absolute necessity during any war.

[Stunaep]

Originally posted by CP5670
It also boosted popular morale immensely, an absolute necessity during any war.

So it did make a good symbol.

[CP5670]

But also a good warship.

[beatspete]

I agree with Kellan.  If the GTVA were to build another super-ship, then its focus should be on firepower.  Although the sath won becuase it had more powerfull beams, it had all 4 of tem facing the same way.  This effectivly made it 4 times more powerfull.

Plus another thing - sure the Collosus was nice to look at, but it was a bit of a waste of 30000 people.  How about if those crew were converted into thirty thousand, Helios armed Ursa bombers:devilidea

So maybee not 30000, since they would need support crews and carrier ships to live on, but thats still a hell of a lot of bombers, 2 or 3 good bomber pilots can take down an Orion.

[CP5670]

The one thing that really, really sucked about the Colossus in my opinion was that dinky little fighterbay; how can they launch all those 60 wings through that little triangular hole when it can barely fit even the smaller ships one at a time...

[Tachnyrus]

Originally posted by beatspete
Plus another thing - sure the Collosus was nice to look at, but it was a bit of a waste of 30000 people.  How about if those crew were converted into thirty thousand, Helios armed Ursa bombers:devilidea

So maybee not 30000, since they would need support crews and carrier ships to live on, but thats still a hell of a lot of bombers, 2 or 3 good bomber pilots can take down an Orion.

Taking your logic, why doesn't the US Navy just take it's crew of 6000 per carrier and convert them into pilots of PGM-armed F/A-18Es? Of course, they would need support and carrier ships to live on, but that's still a hell of a lot of fighter-bombers.

[Kabal]

I doubt the creators of the Colossus thought that it would need to scramble all of it's wings at the same time.

[LtNarol]

i thought the colossus had a far larger crew than 30,000; but even so, it is still an incredably clumsy box in space if you ask me.  I would much rather prefer a few wings of bombers.

[Bobboau]

well now they know better,
now think of a C with four BFGreens mounted to the front

but I think the Golgotha like ships are going to be the next step, not as big a pain in the ass to make, big ass punch, you send in a few of them the Sathanas won't get of more than one voly of beams before it gets vaped.