[Snail]

Hey, that makes a lot of sense.

[Drogoth]

I always thought that the Lucifer's reactors were Meson reactors, since they bare some resemblance to the Meson bomb.  If you think about it, Shivans make meson reactors to power the Lucifer, GTI manage to copy the principles of such a reactor and builds a prototype aboard the Einstein, Einstein goes boom but a portion of its plans are salvaged by escape pods and after the Hades rebellion is crushed, their research is shelved for many years until it is dusted off and resumed by GTVA during NTF rebellion.  GTVA then succeeds in the creation of a Meson detonation device, but they are nowhere near as advanced as the Shivans' ones.  This is evidenced by the fact that it took the Lucifer's 5 reactors blowing to collapse the Sol-Delta Serpentis jumpnode, while it took quite a number of the GTVA's meson bombs in a gutted Orion to seal the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi jumpnode.  That's my theory.

Would explain why none of the other shivan ships have mega shielding either. Probably an experiment by the shivans with powering a vessel using extremely volatile substances. As it turns out, not so great a plan.

[Nohiki]

Well it worked for the ancients, combined with the blitz tactics - when they figured out how to get past the shields they already had nothing to do so with. Terrans and Vasudans would have suffered the same fate, but the improbable happened and by accident the ancient outpost was found along with the technology. It was just luck that allowed them to defeat lucifer, nothing else.

[BengalTiger]

That was kind of a Deus Ex Machina, that Ancient site.

And as for the meson reactor theory- I think at least regular Shivan ships run on deuterium, when you kill a Cain, you don't have to be a mile away to survive it's explosion...

[Nohiki]

I thought we were talking specifically about lucifer's reactors, but it doesn't blow that much either. You guys also assume that the fuel is actually what you see thrusting out. The reactors might be used for power generation and some other material, much better suited for that might be used for generating thrust via VASIMIR type engine. It would be much better to generate thrust with heavier ions than just hydrogen. It might be any kind of ionized stuff, hence the different colors.

[Mobius]

That's an interesting idea indeed, Trivial Psychic, but if Meson bombs were the result of research on Shivan technology, we would know it. As far as I remember, however, development of the Meson bomb has nothing to do with the Shivans. (But, you know, that is not strictly true.)

[Snail]

That's an interesting idea indeed, Trivial Psychic, but if Meson bombs were the result of research on Shivan technology, we would know it. As far as I remember, however, development of the Meson bomb has nothing to do with the Shivans. (But, you know, that is not strictly true.)

Yeah, there's no canon info to suggest meson technology came from the Shivans.

[Timerlane]

I might guess that the Meson bomb overkill was more just making absolute sure the node was going down. Time and # of ready spare Orions were probably limited, and as we all know, just cracking the Knossos took more damage than originally planned(though the GTVA was ready to resort to overkill in case of the initial failure).

Also, even if it was more conventionally powered, simply by size, the Lucifer's explosion really should have taken out the whole strike force responsible for killing it, but that would probably have been too much of a downer ending.

[Mobius]

Uhm, why? The strike force was far enough when the Lucifer blew up. Unlike those fighters and bombers, it came out of subspace relatively slowly, thus giving our heroes the time to escape.

[Timerlane]

Subspace emergence and departure speeds are pretty fast for big ships; it'd have probably taken the better part of a minute for that much of the Lucifer to emerge if it were only coming out at 'fighter' speed.

The Ursas, as I recall, do at least try to maintain suspension of disbelief by breaking sideways out of the warp event instead of trying to outrun the Lucifer like everyone else. The Hercs and Ursas should be a little crispy, at least, though I suppose a little more time could have lapsed than was actually shown between the emergence and the actual explosion(there is a cut just before it explodes, IIRC).

[Kusanagi]

Apart from the beams, the Lucifer is underarmed for her size and those beams only fire forward, while the Bastion would have come in behind the Lucifer. But the real reason for ordering the Bastion to attack the Luci was simple desperation. It was the only destroyer in a position to carry out the attack.

That might have been the case, but I can't imagine there wasn't an Orion stationed at Earth that couldn't have gone into the node on the other side and either engaged the Lucifer or tried to just ram it.

[Hades]

Apart from the beams, the Lucifer is underarmed for her size and those beams only fire forward, while the Bastion would have come in behind the Lucifer. But the real reason for ordering the Bastion to attack the Luci was simple desperation. It was the only destroyer in a position to carry out the attack.

That might have been the case, but I can't imagine there wasn't an Orion stationed at Earth that couldn't have gone into the node on the other side and either engaged the Lucifer or tried to just ram it.

They're fighting a war, they'd have needed all their destroyers in the systems currently under attack to keep them from falling to the Shivans

[Kusanagi]

Apart from the beams, the Lucifer is underarmed for her size and those beams only fire forward, while the Bastion would have come in behind the Lucifer. But the real reason for ordering the Bastion to attack the Luci was simple desperation. It was the only destroyer in a position to carry out the attack.

That might have been the case, but I can't imagine there wasn't an Orion stationed at Earth that couldn't have gone into the node on the other side and either engaged the Lucifer or tried to just ram it.

They're fighting a war, they'd have needed all their destroyers in the systems currently under attack to keep them from falling to the Shivans

It was already proven by that point that no weapon they had would have worked against the Lucifer unless it was in subspace. Unless there was some sort of superweapon held in reserve onboard that destroyer, the supposed Orion and any other ships in Sol would have been turned to dust. The only way they would have had a chance to defend Sol was to engage the Lucifer in subspace.

The only other theory I see is that there was no destroyer in Sol, which means they would have left the system virtually undefended. Either way, it's a tremendous poor choice on behalf of Command.

[Snail]

The only other theory I see is that there was no destroyer in Sol, which means they would have left the system virtually undefended. Either way, it's a tremendous poor choice on behalf of Command.

That's what Hades is saying, that all destroyers were deployed to systems where the Shivans already were. By the time the Shivans are in Sol, it's too late, so Command sent his destroyers to fight the Shivans elsewhere.

[Sololop]

Wait a jiff, I'm missing something. Didn't the Bastion enter the Lucifers subspace corridor? And the Bastion was in FS2. How did it get out of Sol when its jump finished? I'm obviously missing something here.

[Hades]

Wait a jiff, I'm missing something. Didn't the Bastion enter the Lucifers subspace corridor? And the Bastion was in FS2. How did it get out of Sol when its jump finished? I'm obviously missing something here.

It dn't make the jump, it sent its fighters and bombers ahead so they could destroy it

[Snail]

Wait a jiff, I'm missing something. Didn't the Bastion enter the Lucifers subspace corridor? And the Bastion was in FS2. How did it get out of Sol when its jump finished? I'm obviously missing something here.

Yeah, go play the last (two) mission(s) to find out what you're missing.

[Mobius]

No destroyers in Sol? There must have been some considering the importance of the system.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

It's possible that the GTA's resources were being stretched. If that was the case, I think it makes little sense to have valuable fleet assets guarding a backwater system that has only one way in or out.

[Mobius]

Yeah, but considering how the frontlines changed, I don't think the GTA would have left Sol without destroyers. Not to mention that ships may have entered the system for repairs because other places were too unsafe for that.