[Kosh]

Yes.  It didn't change from year to year.

Which is exactly what I meant.  This prayer was apparently part of the graduation tradition.  Unless he was entirely and utterly uninvested in his community and school, at which point I don't think he has a right to complain, I fail to see how he missed it.  Therefore, I'm leaning toward the "he's a dick" side.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there were other atheists in the class who did not take pointless umbrage at something founded in tradition. Showing respect for something like that does not equate to participating - He should've bowed his head and used the moment to reflect on an education well done or something, rather than acting like (ironically) a spoiled kid.

It used to be "founded in tradition" to burn witches, lynch black people and do a lot of other unsavory things. The point being just because something is tradition doesn't mean that it is a good thing to do. As for participating, if the school is leading it at the event and if you are attending, you are participating in it simply by being there, hence why it is unconstitutional and illegal with many court cases as precedent. Do you really want to live in a society where you have to believe what the majority believes?

Which law? The First Amendment, which guarantees that government not sponsor any religion? Or the First Amendment, which guarantees the free exercise of religion?

Just trying to point out that there is a lot of gray area to work with in here.

It's the Establishment Clause, stating seperation between church and state. There's no gray area with this as there have been multiple court cases stating that the establishment clause is violated when a public school to leads a prayer.

[General Battuta]

I don't think it was in any way legal for this school to force its students to participate in prayer. I just think the attitudes that popped up early in this thread are equally idiotic.

[Nuclear1]

Not only I don't understand how am I ****ing up secular humanism by defending someone who was actually trying to defend secularism from your shenanigans

Whose shenanigans?

People who want to prevent these conflicts instead of perpetuating them? Those are some pretty benign shenanigans.

i swear to god

[NGTM-1R]

It's the Establishment Clause, stating seperation between church and state. There's no gray area with this as there have been multiple court cases stating that the establishment clause is violated when a public school to leads a prayer.

I agree with this.

However you cannot use bad arguments to reach a sound conclusion, and the people who have tried deserve to be called on it.

[Mars]

I totally agree with the above.

I am surprised at the number of people who said that the student should have to participate in the prayer however.

[SypheDMar]

I am surprised at the number of people who said that the student should have to participate in the prayer however.

Me too.

[Ravenholme]

I totally agree with the above.

I am surprised at the number of people who said that the student should have to participate in the prayer however.

I didn't say he had to participate, I said he should've bowed his head and not been an ass about it. Last I checked, performing a simple motor function was not equivalent to joining in a prayer.

[Dilmah G]

Well it's not like a state-sponsored religion was being forced upon him...As said earlier, he can sit there silently and bow his head in respect or do absolutely nothing at all if he likes during the prayer, it's not like they were going to withhold his graduation certificate if he didn't pray.

I don't believe it was legal, but if you don't show some tact about the way you go about trying to uphold your rights you're going to piss people off.

[Snail]

Dude. He didn't make an ass of himself. He kept it quiet and just applied against it. The only reason people knew about it is because someone leaked his details.

[Dilmah G]

Mate, he threatened them with legal action. No matter what words you decide to put that in, you're going to provoke a storm. And besides, it was a prayer at his graduation, he could've stood easy and waited to act when there was some actual injustice going on rather than threatening someone with legal action over 30 seconds of time on the microphone.

[Snail]

Yeah. I dunno. Sometimes I actually fail to understand how people can give so much of a **** about stuff like this.

[Nuclear1]

I mean, it is kind of a stupid thing to get riled up about, but that goes for both sides.  I mean, were the Christians in the audience really going to feel uncomfortable if there wasn't a prayer?  All the prayer seems to be doing now is making atheist students uncomfortable.  It's the same kind of stuff that happened while I was in the service; at mandatory formations and gatherings, no less.  I can understand where this kid's coming from.

And yeah, the kid was a bit aggressive in the way he handled it, but just about everybody botched this whole thing.  It's something that should have been small and taken care of between a few people, but it pointlessly escalated.  Nobody's hands are clean in this.

[Dilmah G]

Yeah, I'll agree with you there. A prayer getting cancelled for a school graduation shouldn't even make the local paper.

[Flipside]

Aren't we assuming an awful lot about the lad from one paper report that is obviously biased in the first place?

[Sushi]

Which law? The First Amendment, which guarantees that government not sponsor any religion? Or the First Amendment, which guarantees the free exercise of religion?

Just trying to point out that there is a lot of gray area to work with in here.

It's the Establishment Clause, stating seperation between church and state. There's no gray area with this as there have been multiple court cases stating that the establishment clause is violated when a public school to leads a prayer.

My point was that there is the Establishment Clause, but that there is also the Free Exercise clause. These two are somewhat in tension with each other, and always have been.

I'm not overly familiar with the history, but it does seem to me that you are correct in noting that the Supreme Court has tended to come down more often on the side of the Establishment Clause.

EDIT: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/schoolprayer.html is a good read here. Most relevant:

Lee v Weisman (1992) considered school prayer in the special context of a graduation ceremony for a middle school.  The principal of the school had invited a clergyman to offer an invocation and benediction at the ceremony, and that decision was challenged by Weisman, who contended that the practice violated Establishment Clause precedents.  Again voting 5 to 4, with Justice Kennedy providing the key vote, the Court found the invocation and benediction to violate the First Amendment.  Kennedy found an unacceptable degree of coercion, given the fact that the ceremony was an important milestone that students would be extremely reluctant to avoid because of religious scruples.  The options of remaining seated during prayers or leaving right before the benediction did not seem realistic under the circumstances.  Justice Scalia, in a passionate dissent, ridiculed Kennedy's opinion as a "psycho journey" and wrote that he would not find a problem with prayer at graduation ceremonies unless the state attached a penalty to non-participation.

[Nuclear1]

EDIT: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/schoolprayer.html is a good read here. Most relevant:

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean.  It's one thing for people to tell atheists to "aww, just suck it up, it isn't that bad" or "if you don't like it, just get out".  It's their important day too, and not having the prayer shouldn't make the others feel bad.

[Nemesis6]

EDIT: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/schoolprayer.html is a good read here. Most relevant:

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean.  It's one thing for people to tell atheists to "aww, just suck it up, it isn't that bad" or "if you don't like it, just get out".  It's their important day too, and not having the prayer shouldn't make the others feel bad.

I think the problem here is that Christianity has gotten comfortable in an area that it really shouldn't have entered in the first place, so for me, the desire of the majority doesn't really matter. Even if you're allowed to leave, or just be silent if you don't believe, either doesn't really matter because you're being put in a situation where you have to label yourself without even having the chance to explain -- "That guy's not praying? He probably hates Christians. Let's not talk to him." Cliché as that sounds, that's the kind of sentiment you expose yourself to if you're in a situation where you actually need to consider these options. Dealing with this passively or militantly as some would like to portray it, I can't see a way for him to come out of this as a winner. Whatever he does, he loses in one way or another.

[Scotty]

1) "for me, the desire of the majority doesn't really matter."  What the ****?

2) Personal prayer is typically silent.  It's not like everyone chanting along with the words.  No one would be able to tell he wasn't.

You continue to display a startling ignorance for something you argue so strongly against.  You should fix that.

[Ravenholme]

1) "for me, the desire of the majority doesn't really matter."  What the ****?

2) Personal prayer is typically silent.  It's not like everyone chanting along with the words.  No one would be able to tell he wasn't.

You continue to display a startling ignorance for something you argue so strongly against.  You should fix that.

And, he's ascribing that christians are going to see him not praying (as if that were possible, unless we all developed true telepathy whilst I wasn't looking) and then also have a 'SHUN THE HERETIC NON BELIEVER' reaction, which is possibly the most stupid thing I've heard all day. Oh yeah, sure, maybe the one crazy fundie in the class will have that reaction, the rest of the class wouldn't have given a **** if all the christians I know are any yardstick. Well, until he decided to be a crazy fundemantilist atheist and sue the school for it.

[Nemesis6]

1) "for me, the desire of the majority doesn't really matter."  What the ****?

2) Personal prayer is typically silent.  It's not like everyone chanting along with the words.  No one would be able to tell he wasn't.

You continue to display a startling ignorance for something you argue so strongly against.  You should fix that.

I think we're talking past one another here. What I meant with the majority thing was simply to say that even if the majority want an officially sanctioned prayer, it's still wrong. That's where I'm coming from with that. I'm not against it if the majority decide to pray on their own volition. As far as whether anybody would be able to tell whether or not someone's not praying, well, that's a moot point. Still one I think is relevant, though.