Author Topic: Question about jump nodes  (Read 7114 times)

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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Question about jump nodes
I think there is something in the Freespace universe you don't seem to be aware of.

It's called "jump nodes".

Also known as "the bottleneck of DOOM" in BPverse.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Question about jump nodes
Do UEF logistic ships have jump drives or are they constricted by trade lanes jump gates?

No such trouble for Anemois i grant, but there's a limit to how many craft one can service right?
It took two to maintain a battlegroup....
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Offline Snail

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Re: Question about jump nodes
I don't think the UEF has any logistics ships. (except for the ones that defected or they captured)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Question about jump nodes
The UEF logistic ships are called stations. They're in orbit and the UEF has a ****ton of em.

Ingame evidence from AoA and WiH strongly implies that a Tev Anemoi can sustain logistically one destroyer and accompanying taskforce (that means about 3-4 corvettes, about the same number of cruisers, and all the fighter complement of the destroyer).
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: Question about jump nodes
They also have enough spare crew to totally replace an entire cruiser's crew...

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Question about jump nodes
The UEF logistic ships are called stations. They're in orbit and the UEF has a ****ton of em.
Stations can't travel outside of a system. Or outside of their orbital position. Or anywhere, really. They serve the same purpose during the war but they're not logistics ships.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Question about jump nodes
Ahh  you mean those which were raped in the latest GTVA incursion to earth?

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Question about jump nodes
They also have enough spare crew to totally replace an entire cruiser's crew...

Skeleton crew.  Muuuuch less than a normal crew.  Depending on who they decided to keep on board, you can probably cut the crewing requirements by 50% and still have it move and kinda shoot at stuff.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Question about jump nodes
You'd think that in the future, all you would require is like a crew membership of ten people... and all the rest be extremely automated.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Question about jump nodes
Just look at a modern aircraft carrier not all of that **** can be automated and these ships are like ten times the size of a Nimitz.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Question about jump nodes
Not to mention that, between space phenomenae and nukes, ships are constantly bathing in EM. Not very good for maintaining automation.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Question about jump nodes
Just look at a modern aircraft carrier not all of that **** can be automated and these ships are like ten times the size of a Nimitz.

Tell me what is within a nimitz that can't be automated in the future.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Question about jump nodes
Tell me what is within a nimitz that can't be automated in the future.

Anything required to make a shoot/no-shoot decision, a course change decision, designate target priority, conduct repairs to battle damage, control any system subject to possible serious damage or stress in action...

I can probably come up with a few more if you like.


The thing that strikes me as bizarre is that you suddenly need Anemois at all, when previously the Terran fleet got by without, or the assertion that you can't surge ships into the combat zone for a week or two and then withdraw them, and they'll be able to operate on their own stores during this time.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Question about jump nodes
I don't think the issue is logistics so much as it wouldn't really get you anywhere. You'd probably win, but also sustain massive losses in the process.


Actually back on the subject of logistics the GTVA were operating in their own systems in FS2 (minus the nebula of course) but in Sol they only have control of Artemis Station and Neptune.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Question about jump nodes
I personally see the Anemois as a continued evolution of the GTVA logistics chain.  With FS2 there was a massive increase in the size of freighters and the introduction of gas miners (though presumably they have always existed on some scale and were only first encountered in FS2) both of which were introduced to reduce the dependence on supply depots.  The Anemois is a logical step beyond and is in essence a mobile supply depot, combining the storage capacity with material processing and fabrication facilities is a logical improvement on this.

So yes the GTVA can go on happily without them but Anemois makes the logistics aspect of fleet and battle management more streamlined and easier to protect, if higher in target value.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Question about jump nodes
I don't think the issue is logistics so much as it wouldn't really get you anywhere. You'd probably win, but also sustain massive losses in the process.

I'm not suggesting a shift in strategy, however, so unless they're already taking massive losses, adding more ships to their side of the table should work to decrease the losses they're taking.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Question about jump nodes
Tell me what is within a nimitz that can't be automated in the future.

Anything required to make a shoot/no-shoot decision

No. Drones are actually doing this as we speak... it will be far easier for an AI in 200 years to understand what they should or not do.

Quote
, a course change decision

There's the commander to do this. One person. I entertained the existence of ten people.

Quote
, designate target priority

No. Easily accomplished by an AI.

Quote
, conduct repairs to battle damage,

No. Drones may eventually be designed to do so. Not such a big deal, if you think we have 200 years to design them.

Quote
control any system subject to possible serious damage or stress in action...

No. Trivial problem really.

Quote
I can probably come up with a few more if you like.

I bet you can.

 

Offline Drogoth

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Re: Question about jump nodes
The biggest argument for big crews is repairing damage. What if the drone bay is damage? Her derp all our drones are now useless! Same goes for long term repairs if the drones have no power supply.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Question about jump nodes
What if the drone bay is damaged? What if the crews are damaged? I really can't see the problem with the "drone bay", specially if you don't have one, and instead use the entire ship as the environment for most drones.

Long term repairs are an issue that are easily resolved in "spare time", back in some dock, or with some other external support. Short term, you have a ship at war, and I see no reason to put very qualified men and women in danger when you can instead use drones for the job.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Question about jump nodes
No. Drones are actually doing this as we speak... it will be far easier for an AI in 200 years to understand what they should or not do.

No current or proposed model of armed drone is allowed to attack a target without a human giving the actual command, and this is unlikely to change for the simple reason that nobody wants to encourage the robot rebellion, or for moral reasons allow completely automated lethal action. Speak of things in which you have some grounding. Humans are also infinitely less likely to break down, and a good deal harder to stop working correctly.

There's the commander to do this. One person. I entertained the existence of ten people.

Task overload denies you. A commander is absorbed in processing data and making decisions on targeting and strategy; while he will undoubtedly give course orders, a second person at the helm is required for safety reasons, as there are things the commander may not see. Similarly the commander is unlikely to be alone for the same reason, so there will probably be a second officer in the loop since a human's ability to process multiple tasks is limited. And so on and so forth, the larger the ship, the more people are required simply to command it effectively.

No. Easily accomplished by an AI.

Indeed? Then why is it so easy to screw with their heads on this in many games? AIs short of strong lack the flexibility and adaptability to handle this correctly.

No. Drones may eventually be designed to do so. Not such a big deal, if you think we have 200 years to design them.

You are proposing the existence of true AI in a humanoid platform then? Short of a true artificial intelligence the ability to adapt to unpredictable scope and types of damage would be difficult, nearly impossible; similarly any proposed drone must be able to maneuver both in gravity and non-gravity environments, reasonably good at dealing with extremes of EM radiation from both damaged equipment and enemy fire, and able to manipulate a wide variety of tools and materials.

Even if you can manage all that, the odds are good trained humans will be cheaper and easier to replace.

No. Trivial problem really.

As above: Humans are also infinitely less likely to break down, and a good deal harder to stop working correctly. Why do we still have humans in nuclear power plants? Surely we can construct a foolproof safety system by your logic?

Well, no, we can't. And trained humans are cheaper than trying.
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