Author Topic: Question about jump nodes  (Read 7113 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Slasher

  • 29
Question about jump nodes
In FS canon, do jump nodes revolve around their system's star(s) like planets?  Or do they remain static relative to other bodies and stellar phenomena in system? 


 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • Global Moderator
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Question about jump nodes
I don't think canon has any info on this.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Question about jump nodes
They can't be fully static; they'd drift out of the system fairly quickly.

And canon does have info on this; we visit the node from Capella to Gamma Drac at least twice. Compare the backgrounds and tell me if planetary/solar locations change.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Question about jump nodes
We've theorized in the past that nodes are products of Langrangian points between the large gravitational influences in a system, the star and one of the outer giants for instance.  So yes, if we say that this is the case, they would revolve around the parent star, but pretty slowly.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

  • 212
  • Snoop Junkie
Re: Question about jump nodes
I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either).  Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.
The Trivial Psychic Strikes Again!

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Question about jump nodes
I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either).  Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.

easily hand waved.

Firstly there is what 50? years between FS1 closing cutscene and BP:AoA, The solar system will change very noticeably in that time, also there are a number of gas giants in the system would effect things using the gravity theory perhaps moving the node away from Earth orbit.

Secondly the Lucifer was undergoing a subspace altering explosion at the time which might throw the maths out significantly

Thirdly how does the jumpgate factor in, does it have any effect on the jump corridor.

Fourthly going back to point 1 what is the Earth's orbital position at the end of FS1 compared to AoA
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Question about jump nodes
Umm, I'm gonna give the first FS1 a pass on accuracy and say it was artistic license.  Besides, maybe it was an unstable node that humans knew about but could traverse.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

  • Cutscene Master
  • 212
  • Anims: 420, Cutscenes: 10, Mainhalls: 7, Logos: 52
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Mix-Hai Productions
Re: Question about jump nodes
I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either).  Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.

Where did this come from? Almost everyone in here is suggesting in one form or another that the node could have easily moved between the two time periods...
Cutscene Upgrade Project - Mainhall Remakes - MixaelANITools - Between the Ashes - MjnMixael's Render Boutique - Mix-Hai Productions
Youtube Channel - P3D Model Box - Photobucket Albums - Model Releases - Downloads
Between the Ashes is looking for committed testers, PM me for details.
Report MediaVP issues, now on the MediaVP Mantis! Read all about it Here!

 

Offline Axem

  • Administrator
  • 211
Re: Question about jump nodes
Or that that a new node was created entirely. :)

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Minecraft
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: Question about jump nodes
Yeah, nothing says that reactivating a collapsed node via an artificial subspace gate is going to take you to the exact same place in the system that the original node did.

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28
Re: Question about jump nodes
I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either).  Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.

easily hand waved.

Firstly there is what 50? years between FS1 closing cutscene and BP:AoA, The solar system will change very noticeably in that time, also there are a number of gas giants in the system would effect things using the gravity theory perhaps moving the node away from Earth orbit.

Secondly the Lucifer was undergoing a subspace altering explosion at the time which might throw the maths out significantly

Thirdly how does the jumpgate factor in, does it have any effect on the jump corridor.

Fourthly going back to point 1 what is the Earth's orbital position at the end of FS1 compared to AoA


Fourth point doesn't work assuming the node is static in relation to the star, (which i think is the argument, considering the other post said BP got it wrong). Yeah true when the Orestes jumps in the earth could be on the other side of the star, but the GTVA-UEF war lasts much longer then a year, all the GTVA would have to do is wait for Earth to spin back round to them, insta win. I somehow doubt that the orbit of Earth would change significantly enough within 50 years to make a significant strategic difference in terms of that war. Points 2 & 3 are fair, and i don't think anyone knows the answer to that haha (i suppose BP canon can handle the effects of those two things, depending on how they happen to interpret nodes in the first place), but if nodes are static then point 4 doesn't work imho.

Regardless though, I think we have to assume nodes are static (in relation to their stars), how else would the Knossos still have been in position 8000 years later? I find it unlikely that the Knossos could have somehow managed to 'tag' itself to the node and follow it around without some kind of power output that would be significant enough for the GTSC Erikson to detect - and it didn't have that output.

That's my position, but I recognize that it can also be argued canonically that they move because static nodes would probably have static defenses (installations built for combat) rather then easily deployed and packed up RBC's and Sentry guns. As the nodes lack those defenses they either:

A) move
B) The GTA/PVE/GTVA are colossally stupid
C) All nodes that Alpha one encounters have had their defenses destroyed/are new and don't have any yet 
D) perhaps static defenses are simply not cost effective

Canon just isn't clear enough on this one, but i feel the evidence of the longevity of the dormant Knossos is a pretty strong argument in favor of static (in relation to their star) nodes
TC 2 Fan club for Life

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: Question about jump nodes
Yeah true when the Orestes jumps in the earth could be on the other side of the star, but the GTVA-UEF war lasts much longer then a year, all the GTVA would have to do is wait for Earth to spin back round to them, insta win.
Wat

How having the node in view of Earth is an insta win.

I mean, you're still a few millions klicks from it. Which means you're one subspace jump from it. Which means you're still as far away from it as if the jump node was the other side of Sol.

Seriously, since when is distance relevant, when we're using subspace ?
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28
Re: Question about jump nodes
Yeah true when the Orestes jumps in the earth could be on the other side of the star, but the GTVA-UEF war lasts much longer then a year, all the GTVA would have to do is wait for Earth to spin back round to them, insta win.
Wat

How having the node in view of Earth is an insta win.

I mean, you're still a few millions klicks from it. Which means you're one subspace jump from it. Which means you're still as far away from it as if the jump node was the other side of Sol.

Seriously, since when is distance relevant, when we're using subspace ?

If the node was close enough to be in view of earth (and earth wasn't a pinprick in the FS1 end cutscene, it was nearby) Then the GTVA wouldn't need Neptune. They wouldn't need Jupiter. Their supply chain would be non-existent because they could just keep all the supplies in delta serpentis and pop through the gate when they needed repairs.

Seriously, the GTVA fleet could just come herp derping through the gate en masse, it wouldnt matter how many destroyers they could support in system, because their objective is to close to the gate to require sustained logistic presence in the system.
TC 2 Fan club for Life

 

Offline Destiny

  • 29
  • Twintails are eternal!
Re: Question about jump nodes
Also Admiral Petrach said that the Knossos might not have been detected because it was inactive 15 years ago from 2367, and Bosch sent the Trinity to activate it and get itself trapped.

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • Global Moderator
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Question about jump nodes
In BP canon, nodes move around on highly eccentric orbits.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: Question about jump nodes
If the node was close enough to be in view of earth (and earth wasn't a pinprick in the FS1 end cutscene, it was nearby) Then the GTVA wouldn't need Neptune. They wouldn't need Jupiter. Their supply chain would be non-existent because they could just keep all the supplies in delta serpentis and pop through the gate when they needed repairs.

Seriously, the GTVA fleet could just come herp derping through the gate en masse, it wouldnt matter how many destroyers they could support in system, because their objective is to close to the gate to require sustained logistic presence in the system.

What you say doesn't make any sense.

How would the situation be different from what it is in WiH ?

Wherever the node is in the system, you're still one subspace jump away from Luna, Earth, Neptune or whatever place in Sol you can think of. The physical proximity doesn't matter ****.

Do you think they invaded Neptune first for proximity reasons ? They did that only because it was lightly defended and a potential logistical heaven. If that had been true for Mercury, they would have done the exact same thing.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28
Re: Question about jump nodes
If the node was close enough to be in view of earth (and earth wasn't a pinprick in the FS1 end cutscene, it was nearby) Then the GTVA wouldn't need Neptune. They wouldn't need Jupiter. Their supply chain would be non-existent because they could just keep all the supplies in delta serpentis and pop through the gate when they needed repairs.

Seriously, the GTVA fleet could just come herp derping through the gate en masse, it wouldnt matter how many destroyers they could support in system, because their objective is to close to the gate to require sustained logistic presence in the system.

What you say doesn't make any sense.

How would the situation be different from what it is in WiH ?

Wherever the node is in the system, you're still one subspace jump away from Luna, Earth, Neptune or whatever place in Sol you can think of. The physical proximity doesn't matter ****.

Do you think they invaded Neptune first for proximity reasons ? They did that only because it was lightly defended and a potential logistical heaven. If that had been true for Mercury, they would have done the exact same thing.

Distance does make a difference if not in time traveled then at least in ability TO travel. The impression I get from the actions of ships in canon is that one jump can't carry you to ANYWHERE in the system, only a set distance. As such, ships often have to jump in at pretty bad locations for their missions. Examples of this would include:

The Taurus attacking the Plato. Seriously, I know the shivans kicked its **** in, but if they hadn't, that was NOT an effective attack range, not even close. That was WAYYYYYYY off. And they had accurate coordinates for the Plato, a wing of Anubises had just jumped in a click out, why did the taurus have to be so fa away?

The Plato itself was obviously equipped with a jumpdrive, so why did it jump in so damn far away from the node?

The Taranis in its attempted escape from Ikeya

The rosetta and their omega transports

The freighters attempting to escape deneb in fs2

In all of these cases, if the jump drives didnt have a limit on how far they could take he ships in a single jump why would  these ships have exited subspace so far from their objectives?

Another case, the convoy you escort in FS2 to supply the colossus.. Why? If you are ALWAYS one jump from your target then why wouldn't they just wait for the colossus to arrive, hit their drives and jump in right at the colossus instead of risking attack?

Perhaps the most damning of all, the Bastion chasing the Lucifer. I mean seriously, if jump drives could take you ANYWHERE in the system in one jump why the hell would the Bastion jump in 22 clicks from the Sol node? How would Shima explain that to command. "yeah so heads up command, I know I'm supposed to save earth and everything, but i jumped in 22 clicks out and now i my drives are down. Sorry, the Lucy is getting away!!!"

There certainly aren't 'distortion fields' around the nodes, or at least not ones that large, based on the Prophecy jumping in right next to the sol nod, the Carthage at the Knossos, etc. So while that confirms the nodes don't have 'deadzones' around them, that would imply that either the GTVA/GTA/PVN are criminally retarded, or you can only go so far on one drive charge. By your logic, Convoys should NEVER need escort. They should jump into a system, sit at the node with friendly forces until their drives recharge and then happily be on their way to the next node through subspace all the way.

I have poured way to many hours into escort missions that pissed me off, ive gotta believe that they were actually necessary and command wasn't just jerking me around and choosing not to use subspace :P

Additionally, since we're arguing in the BPverse, look at the Carthage's backup drive. It is said that its only strong enough to take them so far, and they end up getting caught at Saturn. Now unless the backup drive is COMPLETELY different in every way from all other drives (which I suppose is possible but I think incredibly unlikely), that implies that its just a scaled down version of a normal drive, made for short distance jumps. But that also implies that all drives have a max distance limit, as i mentioned above
TC 2 Fan club for Life

 

Offline Timerlane

  • 27
  • Overseer of Slag Determination
Re: Question about jump nodes
IMO, the most obvious reason for large ships to not just jump in and sit right at a node is to prevent potentially catastrophic collisions. Space is big, so long as everyone isn't intentionally trying to occupy the same(say...2k diameter?) sphere.

Also, if everyone did the 'obvious', blockading warships or fighter/bomber groups would always know exactly where every ship attempting to leave the system will jump in, and they can just park themselves right outside the node, like Mjolnir sentries, and butcher anything that shows up. Theoretically, by picking a more variable spot to jump in, as a policy, you give yourself some time/distance to turn and run to buy time for your subspace drive to recharge for a quick intra-system getaway, if you discover trouble near the node(or, for your escorts to remove the trouble, if you have any).

To be entirely fair, though, the needs of the story sometimes just come first, i.e. the Taurus; giving you the 'oh crap' moment when, after chasing down the 'unknowns' for the visual ID, they jump out and reappear several klicks away, right next to the science cruiser you're supposed to be guarding. The Bastion's run to the node also likely suffers partly from this(rule of dramatic, letting Alpha 1 and the strike force run the gauntlet on the way to the node), though the need to not unknowingly blunder in and jump right in front of the Lucifer might give them some excuse.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: Question about jump nodes
Distance does make a difference if not in time traveled then at least in ability TO travel. The impression I get from the actions of ships in canon is that one jump can't carry you to ANYWHERE in the system, only a set distance. As such, ships often have to jump in at pretty bad locations for their missions. Examples of this would include:

The Taurus attacking the Plato. Seriously, I know the shivans kicked its **** in, but if they hadn't, that was NOT an effective attack range, not even close. That was WAYYYYYYY off. And they had accurate coordinates for the Plato, a wing of Anubises had just jumped in a click out, why did the taurus have to be so fa away?

The Plato itself was obviously equipped with a jumpdrive, so why did it jump in so damn far away from the node?

The Taranis in its attempted escape from Ikeya

The rosetta and their omega transports

The freighters attempting to escape deneb in fs2

In all of these cases, if the jump drives didnt have a limit on how far they could take he ships in a single jump why would  these ships have exited subspace so far from their objectives?

Another case, the convoy you escort in FS2 to supply the colossus.. Why? If you are ALWAYS one jump from your target then why wouldn't they just wait for the colossus to arrive, hit their drives and jump in right at the colossus instead of risking attack?

Perhaps the most damning of all, the Bastion chasing the Lucifer. I mean seriously, if jump drives could take you ANYWHERE in the system in one jump why the hell would the Bastion jump in 22 clicks from the Sol node? How would Shima explain that to command. "yeah so heads up command, I know I'm supposed to save earth and everything, but i jumped in 22 clicks out and now i my drives are down. Sorry, the Lucy is getting away!!!"

There certainly aren't 'distortion fields' around the nodes, or at least not ones that large, based on the Prophecy jumping in right next to the sol nod, the Carthage at the Knossos, etc. So while that confirms the nodes don't have 'deadzones' around them, that would imply that either the GTVA/GTA/PVN are criminally retarded, or you can only go so far on one drive charge. By your logic, Convoys should NEVER need escort. They should jump into a system, sit at the node with friendly forces until their drives recharge and then happily be on their way to the next node through subspace all the way.

I have poured way to many hours into escort missions that pissed me off, ive gotta believe that they were actually necessary and command wasn't just jerking me around and choosing not to use subspace :P
None of what you've mentioned so far is relevant to BP canon. Different eras, different technologies, not to mention some meh :v-old: mission design choices.

Quote
Additionally, since we're arguing in the BPverse, look at the Carthage's backup drive. It is said that its only strong enough to take them so far, and they end up getting caught at Saturn. Now unless the backup drive is COMPLETELY different in every way from all other drives (which I suppose is possible but I think incredibly unlikely), that implies that its just a scaled down version of a normal drive, made for short distance jumps. But that also implies that all drives have a max distance limit, as i mentioned above
It's a crash jump. Which means that it didn't have time to calculate coordinates. Which is why they ended up captured by the Saturn gravity well until it recharges anyone of its two jump drives. It's said clearly in the debriefings and briefings, did you even read em ?
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28
Re: Question about jump nodes
I was merely stating that FS canon implies that distance DOES matter for a jump, if BP canon directly says that's not true, show me the quote, i shall concede, perhaps i missed it

Additionally, yes I did read the briefings, and i remember there being a line about the Carthage's backup drive not being strong enough to take it back to Jupiter. Which backs up my point.

But even discounting this, the UEF had an AMBUSH in place set to hit the Carthage when it dropped out of subspace, which means they KNEW that he Carthage couldn't make it to Jupiter, crash jump or not. Yes, the crash jump is the reason the Carthage ended up in the exact position it did, but it certainly didn't hinge on the crash jump screwing the Carthage over.

I mean what kind of planning would that be. "We'll lure the Carthage into a trap, and when it jumps away, we'll hope it gets unlucky. Also pilots may die for this. And the crew of the mining stations. If the Carthage DOESN'T get unlucky  with their crash jump then its all for naught. But we'll do it this way"

As such, the crash jump has nothing to do with the actual planning of the operation, which was designed to take advantage of the fact that they KNEW the carthage couldn't make it all the way back to jupiter, implying that jump drives have limits on how far they could take a ship  on a single charge.

If there was no range, why would we need nodes at all? if normal space means squat when in subspace we should be able to hop from system to system wherever and whenever we please. Instead, we use a naturally formed phenomenon to boost our travel capacity, allowing us to go from system to system, again showing that there is a distance limit.

I'm starting to lose track of the sub arguments against arguments against the original point we were disagreeing over xD
TC 2 Fan club for Life