Author Topic: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?  (Read 4715 times)

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Offline Vrets

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Well, the 'external GTA' collapsed because it was a collection of colonial ventures from Sol, reeling from 14 years of war.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
The external GTA had a much larger territory to cover, and contrary to Sol, their forces were growing increasingly thinner after the DS-Sol node collapse, given that hostilities with the Shivans didn't end until a few months after, not to mention the HoL left to be dealt with.

In Sol, even if you don't have a single destroyer operational, you can still launch fighters from stations and be anywhere in the territory a few minutes notice. In the rest of the GTA territories, you need at least one base in every controlled system. Which is not exactly a given after years of war and tremendous losses.

Long story short, whatever the Sol/rest fleet ratio is, the rest of the GTA is spread much thinner and hence has potentially much less control over its territory than Sol forces. If anything, Sol should potentially be much stabler politically/militarily-wise than the rest of the GTA.

Not to mention that the whole civilian political leadership and infrastructure was most likely based in Sol. Which means, again, potentially more stability and smoother post-collapse transition.
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Offline Drogoth

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
The external GTA had a much larger territory to cover, and contrary to Sol, their forces were growing increasingly thinner after the DS-Sol node collapse, given that hostilities with the Shivans didn't end until a few months after, not to mention the HoL left to be dealt with.

In Sol, even if you don't have a single destroyer operational, you can still launch fighters from stations and be anywhere in the territory a few minutes notice. In the rest of the GTA territories, you need at least one base in every controlled system. Which is not exactly a given after years of war and tremendous losses.

Long story short, whatever the Sol/rest fleet ratio is, the rest of the GTA is spread much thinner and hence has potentially much less control over its territory than Sol forces. If anything, Sol should potentially be much stabler politically/militarily-wise than the rest of the GTA.

Not to mention that the whole civilian political leadership and infrastructure was most likely based in Sol. Which means, again, potentially more stability and smoother post-collapse transition.

 :yes:
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Offline qwadtep

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
I don't think there are credible mobile military forces in Sol, at least nothing bigger then Cruisers.

Had they been there, no, they would not have met the Lucifer head on, they could have jumped to Delta S at the moment the Bastion BEGAN its chase in Sirius. They could have moved off the Delta S node, waited for the Lucifer to make transit, and then followed it in, which is essentially what the Bastion was trying to do.

In fact, it would be sheer lunacy for the GTA to have not done this. Ships that meet the Lucifer in combat in normal space during FS1 are by definition useless. Obviously they would meet the Lucifer in battle over Earth if there were no other option, but in this case, there WAS another option. For them not to use that option and instead rely on the dim hope that the Bastion, recalled i from at LEAST two systems away would catch up to the Lucifer borders on insanity.

Recall that the Bastion was ambushed on its two-system scramble to Sol by a Demon, a Typhon, and numerous Shivan wings of unknown origin. Delta Serpentis was -not- a secure system. It would have been very ill advised to move whatever forces were defending Sol out of the system; they'd just get torn apart and then the Shivans wouldn't even need the Lucifer to walk all over Sol.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
And the HoL. We know they had at least one Typhon in Delta Serpentis, which is quite a significant force.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
The entire First Fleet was statioend at Sol. Nuff said.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
That's most likely, or at least the core elements of it. However I am most curious to know where the hell they were when the Lucifer died instead of blockading the node. I know there were two other nodes to cover, at least in FS1 canon but still, there wasn't a single ship to be seen at the node during the Endgame cutscene.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Perhaps they were waiting with their drives hot, and would jump to whatever node Lucifer came out of.

 

Offline Drogoth

  • 28
Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Perhaps they were waiting with their drives hot, and would jump to whatever node Lucifer came out of.


... Don't they kind of know that its going to come from Delta Serpentis?

GTA Command: Admiral Shima is chasing the Lucifer through Delta Serpentis trying to intercept it before it reaches earth!

First Fleet Command: Excellent! We'll make sure to  cover the Deneb and Beta Aquilae nodes in case the Lucifer comes through there!

/what?

I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?
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Offline Kie99

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?

Quite reasonable in my view, once the Lucifer got to Sol it was game over, as far as Earth was concerned, up against an invincible superdestroyer with far superior weaponry all that would happen if you sent a fleet against them would be the destruction of your fleet.  Best to save your forces until it leaves the system and send bombers in after it and try to take it out in Subspace, at least the species might survive in that scenario.  We saw in Freespace 2 that the GTA actually does pretty well without the resources of Sol, sending in absolutely everything the GTA had left in Sol would have been pissing all that way on a wing and a prayer.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?

What would it accomplish to engage it at the node? It's still invincible. You resources are better spent guarding what evacuation convoys you can assemble.

Indeed the keeping of any cruisers or destroyers in Sol rather than sending the heavies to Delta Serpentis to try and secure it so the Bastion can get through is doubly stupid. They can only go squish when the Lucifer arrives. In fact, considering the Lucifer's power, giving it important-looking things it can actually shoot its big guns at is pretty stupid because they'll not only get killed but they'll get everything around them killed faster.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Ever think the fleet wasn't at the node because that would require extra resources in order to put them into the cutscene? It was cheaper just to leave them out and not have to deal with it!

And as for what NGTM said, assisting in the evacuation of Earth seems far more likely (which is what I was going to type up until I saw him already making that point)
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Ever think the fleet wasn't at the node because that would require extra resources in order to put them into the cutscene? It was cheaper just to leave them out and not have to deal with it!
Well yeah, obviously, but you can't make a good debate out of mundane real-world limitations. :p

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?

What would it accomplish to engage it at the node? It's still invincible. You resources are better spent guarding what evacuation convoys you can assemble.

Indeed the keeping of any cruisers or destroyers in Sol rather than sending the heavies to Delta Serpentis to try and secure it so the Bastion can get through is doubly stupid. They can only go squish when the Lucifer arrives. In fact, considering the Lucifer's power, giving it important-looking things it can actually shoot its big guns at is pretty stupid because they'll not only get killed but they'll get everything around them killed faster.

That's only if Delta Serpentis could realistically be secured before the Bastion and Lucifer arrived.  Otherwise First Fleet would be abandoning the tremendous logistical advantage of Sol's infrastructure and leaving their homeworld open to attack by the HoL or Shivan advance forces in the meantime.

  

Offline Drogoth

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
I get maybe covering against a flanking attack from Shivan held Deneb, but NOTHING at the DS node?

What would it accomplish to engage it at the node? It's still invincible. You resources are better spent guarding what evacuation convoys you can assemble.

Indeed the keeping of any cruisers or destroyers in Sol rather than sending the heavies to Delta Serpentis to try and secure it so the Bastion can get through is doubly stupid. They can only go squish when the Lucifer arrives. In fact, considering the Lucifer's power, giving it important-looking things it can actually shoot its big guns at is pretty stupid because they'll not only get killed but they'll get everything around them killed faster.

That's only if Delta Serpentis could realistically be secured before the Bastion and Lucifer arrived.  Otherwise First Fleet would be abandoning the tremendous logistical advantage of Sol's infrastructure and leaving their homeworld open to attack by the HoL or Shivan advance forces in the meantime.

This isn't Beta Cygni, this is SOL. There should at least be a picket force on the node 24/7 so if an angry squadron of kamikze HoL arrive they dont kill innocent people before the fleet could respond.

And in response to NGM, my original argument was that the heavies SHOULD go to DS and secure that area in advance of the Lucifer, I was merely stating that if they didn't do that, there should have been something at the DS node
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Offline NeonShivan

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Quote
This isn't Beta Cygni, this is SOL. There should at least be a picket force on the node 24/7 so if an angry squadron of kamikze HoL arrive they dont kill innocent people before the fleet could respond.

Ending cutscene for fs1 says otherwise.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
That's only if Delta Serpentis could realistically be secured before the Bastion and Lucifer arrived.  Otherwise First Fleet would be abandoning the tremendous logistical advantage of Sol's infrastructure and leaving their homeworld open to attack by the HoL or Shivan advance forces in the meantime.

If nothing else you can lurk and secure the node itself for the Bastion's passage or draw some fire.

The logistical advantage you posit isn't. Warships must be able to operate on their own for some period of time to be useful as warship, at least a couple weeks, probably more.

I'm also not proposing to strip Sol; I'm saying send the heavies out of the system, the big, flashy, high-value targets. Things the Lucifer will be tempted to jump on. By the end of FS1 the pendulum has swung entirely to the fighter as a means of decision. Keep your fighters to guard the evacuation, as they will not tempt the Lucifer into attacking the convoys they're with because the Lucifer can't fight them effectively. That is more than enough security at this stage of the war.

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Offline LoneKnight

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
It makes little sense to suggest the entire Sol System would collapse. To clarify an earlier point, there are hundreds of moons, several planetoids (dwarf planets) and even more resources beyond in the Oort Cloud. Subspace jumps within the system are still possible, so there's no reason to suggest the system would just die. Especially considering the Terran government was already located on Earth.

My question is, how far is the nearest system (Delta Serpentis?)? Could actual messages by sent from the GTVA to Earth or vice versa, albeit several years of waiting for the message traveling at the speed of light to reach one party. Obviously if they are further than 32 light years, nobody would have heard from either side. Though, you would assume otherwise, they would send each other a message of what's happening on either side.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Alpha Cenaturi does not have a subspace node to Sol, but it is occupied by the GTA and GTVA. Messages could be sent.
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: How would the GTVA be changed by a return to Sol?
Gah, beaten.

My question is, how far is the nearest system (Delta Serpentis?)? Could actual messages by sent from the GTVA to Earth or vice versa, albeit several years of waiting for the message traveling at the speed of light to reach one party. Obviously if they are further than 32 light years, nobody would have heard from either side. Though, you would assume otherwise, they would send each other a message of what's happening on either side.
Alpha Centauri is the closest star system to the Sun at about 4.37 light-years, and it happens to be one of the systems in FS.  From a practical standpoint, there's no physical reason why Sol and the GTVA wouldn't have been able to send traditional EM signals back-and-forth with a 9-year round-trip lag time.  The fact that the game never mentions this happening has led to a decent amount of fan speculation as to why.  The most likely possibilities I can think of myself are that there's some sort of physical/subspace anomaly in the intervening space that disrupts communication attempts...or that the GTVA really has heard from Sol, but the contents are disturbing enough that they've kept everything tightly classified.