[Styxx]

Originally posted by Shrike
As for the heat, well, that's due to all the hot girls.

LOL! True, true. Shame you got me on a bad time (and I've been on a bat time ever since) - with too much work and no time for anything else. If you had came a couple of months earlier it would have been a lot different...

And indeed, everything here is pretty cheap, except for tech stuff (computers, etc.).

[Grey Wolf]

Let's get down to the real cause of this conflict: Rome. There are two routes to this.[list=1]

• Without Rome the power void which caused Charlemagne to gain power in the 800s (?) would not have existed. If Charlemagne had not gained power, the Hapsburgs would not have gained power, preventing the system of alliances which spawned many wars, including the War of Spanish Succession and World War I. Without World War I, no World War II. No World War II, no creation of Israel. No creation of Israel, no insane suicide bombers.
• No Rome = no conquering of the original Israel and no diaspora, so no creation of a new Israel and no suicide bombers.

Or we could blame Yassir Arafat and Ariel Sharon for being ***holes that don't know how to do anythign but consolidate their power through propaganda and terror tactics.

[Martinus]

I'm not even going to get started on conflict, needless to say that anything that you hear in the media will be tainted.

Lets face it people, unless you spend a day moving around with sandwich and witness the effect suicide bombers have on people you'll never see the true Isreali standpoint likewise you'd need to have the mindset of a palestinian terrorist to understand why they take the measures they do in attempt to purge what they regard as invaders.

I personally am very glad I live here in Ireland and I wouldn't swap it for anywhere else in the world, to say to sandwich "just pack up and leave" is unrealistic. Your home is your home no matter where it is.

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Maeglamor
Your home is your home no matter where it is.

Tottally agree.

[TheVirtu]

Lets face it people, unless you spend a day moving around with sandwich and witness the effect suicide bombers have on people you'll never see the true Isreali standpoint likewise you'd need to have the mindset of a palestinian terrorist to understand why they take the measures they do in attempt to purge what they regard as invaders.

This is true, these scuide bombers are damaging the Isrealis and its people, you never know where they'll come from. The rest of us dont actually see what happens up close, we see it all happening on the news while the citizens of Isreal live in constant fear for what could happen to their family and friends.

Your home is your home no matter where it is.

Agreed.

Or we could blame Yassir Arafat and Ariel Sharon for being ***holes that don't know how to do anythign but consolidate their power through propaganda and terror tactics.

I'm not exactly sure if one is better than the other, but I do blame them, more blaming Arafat.

---
What I don't really understand is, if they could just know that scuide isnt the thing todo in this situation. They should know better that they're just making the Middle East more hellish than it is now, exactly like Afghanistan. Life is a great thing, I wouldnt scuide myself for some unforseen reason for the one point of religion,etc.

[Blitz_Lightning]

What I don't really understand is, if they could just know that scuide isnt the thing todo in this situation. They should know better that they're just making the Middle East more hellish than it is now, exactly like Afghanistan.

I agree with you there, but that doesn't change the facts. I'm sure that most of the suiciders would prefer not to commit suicide. It's just that, the Palestines have no way of hitting back at the Israelis apart from using terrorism. They can't fight them militarily, they can't fight them economically, they can't fight them with politics especially as Israel is the favorite of America... What can they do? They are frustrated with the occupation of their land by the Israeli soldiers. It is understandable. They have no other method of fighting back. These people suicide because they want their own back against the Israelis. You cant say the same thing for all the thousands of people in developed countries who suicide because they think life is ****.


What type of government you have in a country DOES affect your country. Take Margaret Thatcher for example. She turned Britain into a society in which one third is in poverty, the middle third insecure, and the top third rich. She implemented one of the biggest wealth redistribution policies- resulting in the rich getting richer and the poor poorer. Unfortunately for us in Australia, our politicians had to copy her.

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Shrike
Costs too much?  Dude, I was there for 7 weeks and spent the equivalent of about 300-350 pounds.

As for the heat, well, that's due to all the hot girls.

It probably costs £300 just to fly there and i dont really want to go Brazil.

[Bobboau]

I still say the Palistinians would have had palistine back by now if they wouldn't have started this second intifada.
of corse if this land is so important to them they shouldn't have picked a fight with Isrial all those years ago to begin with, but they did,

all these atacks do is insure Isrial won't even think of giving them there own state,
now this is exactly what the extremests want, they want the west bank to just get to be absolute hell on earth, they want the people broken and they want no peace, this is why Isrial must stop pussy footing around and just all out nail these guys, there will never be peace if these groupes are left in place,
it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better

there won't be peace with ether of the leaders there are now, I only hope Isrial elects someone a little less hard lined next time round, if (he, if, hahaha!) these atacks continue, then bring the old Sharone stick out again

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
It's just that, the Palestines have no way of hitting back at the Israelis apart from using terrorism. They can't fight them militarily, they can't fight them economically, they can't fight them with politics especially as Israel is the favorite of America... What can they do? They are frustrated with the occupation of their land by the Israeli soldiers. It is understandable. They have no other method of fighting back. These people suicide because they want their own back against the Israelis. You cant say the same thing for all the thousands of people in developed countries who suicide because they think life is ****.

I can certainly see the situation from this point of view, but since it's based on a few... distorted facts at best, I can't agree with it.

Occupation is a word I'm getting tired of hearing. No, I'm not saying you all should tip-toe around here being careful that you don't say the dreaded "O" word - it's just that "the Israeli occupation" has become the kind of excuse that is repeated by various concerned and unconcerned parties, both involved and uninvolved, without understanding the situation at all.

Is Israel currently in control of land that belonged to Jordan and Egypt after 1948? Yes.

Did Israel go out like Alexander the Great, conquering all the territory she could see? No.

Was Israel attacked by Jordan and Egypt? Yes.

During her defensive war, did Israel push the enemy forces back into enemy territory? Yes.

Is there any reason why Israel should be the one "responsible" for the plight (yes, it truly is a plight - I'm not being sarcastic here...) of the people who left their homes because of Israel's military response to their nations' attack? I still don't see how a case can be made that Israel is responsible.

Also, I don't know how well it's known, but if you ask a Palestinian currently living under the PA, who had previously lived under Israel, where he/she was better off, they will tell you that their situation was much better under Israel than the PA. It's becoming a common thing for Palestinian men to marry Israeli-Arab women in order to get citizenship in Israel.

Originally posted by Bobboau
it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better

Unfortunately, you are right.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by sandwich
Is there any reason why Israel should be the one "responsible" for the plight (yes, it truly is a plight - I'm not being sarcastic here...) of the people who left their homes because of Israel's military response to their nations' attack? I still don't see how a case can be made that Israel is responsible.

I dunno, maybe because what goes around, comes around?  I'm sorry, but by what I'm getting from your logic, we shouldn't have basically rebuilt Europe, shouldn't have fixed up Japan, shouldn't even have created Isreal.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Shrike
I dunno, maybe because what goes around, comes around?  I'm sorry, but by what I'm getting from your logic, we shouldn't have basically rebuilt Europe, shouldn't have fixed up Japan, shouldn't even have created Isreal.

No, not that kind of responsible. I mean, to take a WWII example:

(It may not be historically accurate, but it gets the point across)

• Germany attacks France.
• France strikes back, pushing the Germans out of France and beyond, into Germany.
• Germany surrenders.
• France remains with the land they "occupied" while pushing back the Germans.
• German refugees complain that France invaded their land (huh? ) and that they want their land back, as a seperate state, since Germany doesn't want them anymore.
• France refuses, especially considering that there are millions of French living on that land for the past 50 years.
• Interm agreement reached to allow German refugees to return to the "occupied territories", but under French rule.
• German refugees insist on their own state and start to attack France using terrorist tactics.
• France moves in to the "territories" to wipe out the terrorisim.

And so on, and so forth.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by sandwich
No, not that kind of responsible. I mean, to take a WWII example:

(It may not be historically accurate, but it gets the point across)

• Germany attacks France.
• France strikes back, pushing the Germans out of France and beyond, into Germany.
• Germany surrenders.
• France remains with the land they "occupied" while pushing back the Germans.
• German refugees complain that France invaded their land (huh? ) and that they want their land back, as a seperate state, since Germany doesn't want them anymore.
• France refuses, especially considering that there are millions of French living on that land for the past 50 years.
• Interm agreement reached to allow German refugees to return to the "occupied territories", but under French rule.
• German refugees insist on their own state and start to attack France using terrorist tactics.
• France moves in to the "territories" to wipe out the terrorisim.

And so on, and so forth. [/B]

Except that in WWII, it went like this, more or less:

• Germany attacks France.
• The Allies strikes back, pushing the Germans out of France and beyond, into Germany.
• Germany surrenders.
• The Allies remains with the land they "occupied" while rebuilding the country they trashed.
  
• Germany, now rebuilt into an Ally-friendly nation, joins the Allies.

You should be able to see where I'm going with this.  Like it or not, civilized people have an obligation to those they conquer.  Sounds bizzare?  Vae Victus doesn't work so well any more....

[Blitz_Lightning]

France refuses, especially considering that there are millions of French living on that land for the past 50 years.

But of course! That is why Palestinians are refusing to allow Israel to take over their land!

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Shrike
Except that in WWII, it went like this, more or less:

• Germany attacks France.
• The Allies strikes back, pushing the Germans out of France and beyond, into Germany.
• Germany surrenders.
• The Allies remains with the land they "occupied" while rebuilding the country they trashed.
  
• Germany, now rebuilt into an Ally-friendly nation, joins the Allies.

You should be able to see where I'm going with this.  Like it or not, civilized people have an obligation to those they conquer.  Sounds bizzare?  Vae Victus doesn't work so well any more.... [/B]

Ok, that's fine historically, but I wasn't trying to be historically accurate. I was simply transposing Jordan/Egypt and Israel for Germany and France, thus removing the racial hatred from seeing the whole picture.

But on to your point, I agree. However, does it appy in our case?
Israel did not trash Jordan, Egypt or Syria.
Israel has and continues to develop the land that the world calls the West Bank.

If you take what happened in WWII and duplicate it into the mideast situation, Israel would have solidly whupped Jordan and Syria, taken down the current regiemes, replaced them with Israel-friendly regiemes, and helped to rebuild those countries. But we weren't faced with a situation where those nations had to be solidly ground up, swallowed whole, and expelled out the rear. They were (semi) sensible and surrendered before that.

Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
But of course! That is why Palestinians are refusing to allow Israel to take over their land!

Err... no, that's why Israel refuses to give back the land we won in a defensive war. Get it straight.

[Blitz_Lightning]

Err... no, that's why Israel refuses to give back the land we won in a defensive war. Get it straight.

No, that is not true...After World War II, the newly formed United Nations (which then had less developing countries as members) recommended the partition of Palestine into two states and the internationalization of Jerusalem. The minority Jewish people received the majority of the land. That is quite unfair on the Palestinians...

[Ace]

What can still be done however is reconstruction of Palestinian lands for the people. Send in peacekeepers and neutral parties, have Israeli industries but subsidiares in Palistinian lands.

Sounds too simple of a solution I'm sure, however if the common man has no reason to fight and is comfortable, the extremists and terrorists can then be rooted out gung-ho Bush cowboy style.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning


No, that is not true...After World War II, the newly formed United Nations (which then had less developing countries as members) recommended the partition of Palestine into two states and the internationalization of Jerusalem. The minority Jewish people received the majority of the land. That is quite unfair on the Palestinians...

*sigh* That's not what I'm talking about here. The land assigned to the newly formed nation of Israel by the UN is the pre-'67 borders, meaning without Judea, Samaria or Gaza. But during the '67 war, Israel pushed the attacking forces back beyond her own borders and beyond, taking control of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. It's that land (aka The West Bank or the Occupied Territories) that is being argued over. Not the UN-assigned land.

And the Jewish minority in the area _did_ recieve a minority of land, or have you forgotten about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc? Those are all Arab states. Israel's the only Jewish state. And if you look at history carefully, the HaShemite Kingdom of Jordan is supposed to be the nation of the people known today as "Palestinians".

Originally posted by Ace
What can still be done however is reconstruction of Palestinian lands for the people. Send in peacekeepers and neutral parties, have Israeli industries but subsidiares in Palistinian lands.

Sounds too simple of a solution I'm sure, however if the common man has no reason to fight and is comfortable, the extremists and terrorists can then be rooted out gung-ho Bush cowboy style.

I'm all for that - but more than the lands would need to be reconstructed. The leadership would need to be replaced by a leadership willing to and capable of combating terrorisim, as well as an educational system that didn't brainwash the children with thoughts of the glory of becoming a Shahid (suicide martyr). Basically what the Allies did with Germany after WWII.

The one problem is that Germany knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that she had been defeated, and therefore she was open to change. In order for peace to occur between 2 warring parties - true peace, like there is between Germany and France today, one of the parties needs not only to be beaten, but to know that they have been beaten. This happened with Germany and the Allies bombing of their cities, and it happened more drastically with Japan and the atom bombs. Both of those countries knew they were beaten.

Once one of the sides knows it has been beaten, a peace accord is reached. That is actually the wrong phraseology. Simply, the winner dictates it's terms to the loser. Full stop. Period. Again, look at Germany-Japan and the Allies.

Now compare this to Israel's situation, where she has prevailed over attacking nations in numerous wars, but has not truly defeated them. A true defeat is something that requires (pardon the cliche...) a show of force. And force is something that the Islamic mindset respects greatly.

[Grey Wolf]

[Starts hitting head with hammer]Blind.... Morons.... Incapable.... of seeing.... both sides....  of argument![Stops hitting head with hammer]

Let's get down to some of the deep, dark secrets of all revolutionary movements that no one wants to talk about. Terrorism and the destruction of property.
We Americans did it by dumping tea into Boston Harbor and the starting of riots. The tea merchants weren't the ones who were taxing us, the King of Britain was, yet we destroyed their property. The riots started by many revolutionaries led to the destruction of property belonging to people percieved as being sympathetic to the British.
The state of Israel even partially derives itself from acts of terrorism.
Let's face it: People are idiots, and tend to harm other people to gain support for their cause. That defies logic, but it is the truth.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by sandwich
And the Jewish minority in the area _did_ recieve a minority of land, or have you forgotten about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc? Those are all Arab states. Israel's the only Jewish state.

Most of those states predate the origin of Israel, so they don't count. What he was talking about was the division of the British territory of Palestine, not the whole Middle East.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Most of those states predate the origin of Israel, so they don't count.

Well now, that depends on how far back you want to go. If we were to go all the way back to Biblical times, I think that the only nation older than Israel is Egypt, which has remained pretty much as-is to this day.