[Polpolion]

I don't like it, but the school he goes to sounds terrible. It sounds more like he has to do these things to survive, rather than he values these people as friends, though I'm not sure.

I find myself surprised to agree with you, but yeah. Some school districts are almost completely socially conservative that stuff like this can easily happen. A friend of mine went to high school in an impoverished rural western Michigan community and the school had to cancel an anti-bullying campaign after the students started protesting because it was meant to stop the bullying of gays. Obviously I'd wager this isn't the norm, but it happens and I'm willing to bet this is the sort of situation that Apollo is in. He's tacitly promoting bullying by not doing anything I guess, but I don't know if there'd be anything he could do.

[Lorric]

I don't like it, but the school he goes to sounds terrible. It sounds more like he has to do these things to survive, rather than he values these people as friends, though I'm not sure.

I find myself surprised to agree with you, but yeah. Some school districts are almost completely socially conservative that stuff like this can easily happen. A friend of mine went to high school in an impoverished rural western Michigan community and the school had to cancel an anti-bullying campaign after the students started protesting because it was meant to stop the bullying of gays. Obviously I'd wager this isn't the norm, but it happens and I'm willing to bet this is the sort of situation that Apollo is in. He's tacitly promoting bullying by not doing anything I guess, but I don't know if there'd be anything he could do.

Bullying and even sexual harassment occurred openly in many classrooms at school for me. Bullies didn't need to go to any effort at all to be bullies except with a few teachers who wouldn't have it. The other teachers just didn't want to know. Most of them were just picking up a paycheque. But my school seems like a paradise compared to what Apollo describes.

[Mars]

Bullying is just the normal human dominance struggle in grade school. After that either it becomes the more passive aggressive "power struggling" if you're in a white collar job or "Yo, Romi and Evan are going to fight each other after their shift" if you're in a more blue collar setting. Just people being people - adults should just find ways to empower the lower dominance individuals so that things don't get so out of hand.

[General Battuta]

I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.

[Mars]

I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.

Aren't similar things apparent in every other social animal though? Chimpanzees, wolves and the like. (ants are a bit different)

EDIT: This is a layman talking, I'm genuinely curious - not trying to be argumentative.

[Lorric]

I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.

Certainly not mine. Bullying disgusts me and always has from my very youngest years to now.

[General Battuta]

I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.

Aren't similar things apparent in every other social animal though? Chimpanzees, wolves and the like. (ants are a bit different)

EDIT: This is a layman talking, I'm genuinely curious - not trying to be argumentative.

Dominance structures, maybe, but I am criticizing the notion that bullying is a necessary and inevitable expression of dominance hierarchies.

[Apollo]

I don't like it, but the school he goes to sounds terrible. It sounds more like he has to do these things to survive, rather than he values these people as friends, though I'm not sure. The schools I went to were not bad compared to what I've heard about from city schools, yet there was still a decent amount of homophobia and bulllying going on. Most people were not bullies/homophobes, but the teachers at all the schools I went to were mostly absolutely useless at controlling bullies or even their own classrooms. I'm just thankful we didn't have any gang problems, but bullies pretty much had a free hand to do whatever they wanted. Teachers usually took the easy way out and punished victims for causing trouble if they complained rather than tackling the bullies.

I don't actually have to contend with any bullying at the moment. However, I hear a lot of kids talking crap behind each other's backs, there's been a whole bunch of fighting this year, and as they have demonstrated on several occasions my friends are no nicer than they were in middle school.

Speaking of that, my middle school was horrible. It had less than two hundred students, which meant that one clique dominated everything and tore its weaker members apart on a daily basis. In sixth grade I was perfectly happy to participate in it, and in seventh grade I was self-righteous prick who went off on his friends for dumb reasons. In the first semester of eighth grade I was targeted by the clique leader and a few of his friends subordinates, and this made me regret my past behavior. At this point I have completely lost all respect for them and I'm mad at myself for doing the same thing.

Here are some of the nice things they've done:

• Bullied every girl in our grade (in sixth grade).
• Bullied one girl until she ran out of class.
• Bullied one really short kid.
• One of their nerds bullied all the other nerds in the school because he was too weak to pick on anybody else.

Almost all of these things were pretty regular occurrences.

Oh, and they also have a tendency to gang up on each other (think I mentioned that already).

High school seems to be a little better, but there's still a lot of that stuff going on.

If people seriously thought I was gay I'd lose almost all of my friends (only two of them don't hate gays) and my social status would be ruined for the rest of high school. I've also never had a girlfriend, which would in their minds be evidence of that.

Maybe it's time to ask yourself if those are really friends? A true friend is someone who's going to stand by you whether you're straight or gay - or whether people think you are or aren't. What you have there are pack mates - they'll tolerate you as long as you don't step out of line; but as you said yourself, you're worried about their reactions if you did. That's not friendship at all. And frankly, as you grow older you'll hopefully learn to stop giving a **** what people like that think of you. I know it can seem intimidating, going against the flow, and not caring what others will think of you. But do it long enough and you might actually earn some respect from people who deserve it back. What you have now isn't friendship or respect - it's merely acceptance from members of the pack too chicken**** to stand for correct beliefs because they might lose social points. People who end up being worth the air the breathe tend to learn to look past that as they grow up.

Yes, I shouldn't care so much, and no, they're not real friends.

It depends really on what kind of friends you have. I personally feel that if you have a good set of friends, and it would turn out that you are actually really gay, some of them might actually change their opinion about gayness, since you are probably an alright kind of guy. Perhaps your current social status can act as a catalyst, if it would indeed turn out to be the case.

Off course, it is pretty obvious now that you are not gay - in which case, your interactions with potential gay people should not matter to anyone, as you are not hitting on them or anything.

Unfortunately, they would probably think I was gay just for not hating them.

I have anxiety issues, which means that the mere mention of homosexuality will make me uncomfortable because I'm concerned that people will think I'm gay for being uncomfortable about it.

[Lorric]

That's the difference between my schools and yours, mine, while a perfect environment for bullies to thrive in, only a portion of people were bullies, and I can't recall any of the proper hard people being bullies either. Also, there were some nasties, but none of the stone cold psychos you see in the news, or anyone going as far as some of what you describe. The point I'm trying to make is even though many of the teachers were weak and turned a blind eye, the opportunity was there but a lot of people didn't take it and even the bullies didn't go as far as they could have. Severe beatings, the kind which would put you off school didn't really happen, And there were no gangs/cliques. Some of the bullies were friends and would bully together, but the bullies were more opportunistic than putting any real thought or effort into it. They weren't planning schemes in advance or trying to take any kind of power in the school, and certainly didn't bully the teachers. They kind of did whatever they thought of at the time when a victim was there to bully.

I am thankful I have no experience of gangs/cliques. While I know it happens, I haven't come across any bullying really since I left school. Your school sounds particularly bad. Could you switch? Maybe it could be worth looking into. I don't know if you just live in a terrible area and it wouldn't make any difference or would even want to, but going by what others have said (and like with you this was a revelation to me too, since all my schools followed the same pattern) I would have thought the odds would be good a new school would be better. Do the teachers try to do anything? Are they just as useless as my teachers and let people be bullied and girls sexually harassed right there in the classroom?

[Nuke]

in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.

[MP-Ryan]

Life's a funny thing.  Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal.  It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.

That said, every kid in my class who was a tactless bully is now a low-life with a dead end job and minimal future prospects.  Every one of the sly bullies may have become a little more successful, but they've pretty much carried on with their narcissistic/sociopathic behaviour in business.

I had a really strong group of friends - who I am still friends with today.  While we were all the "nerds," the "smart kids," the "band geeks," etc, and were bullied mercilessly in some cases, we're all quite successful now and courtesy of those bonds we were able to largely ignore the bull****, an option many other kids didn't have.

It's amusing, though. The 'popular' kids, for the most part, lead dead-end existences.  The few that are successful are still just as narcissistic/sociopathic as ever - and an awful lot of bullies have a serious disregard for rules.  In high school those are school rules.  In life, those are laws.  As for me?  I work in law enforcement...

Karma's a ***** =)

[Grizzly]

Life's a funny thing.  Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal.  It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.

I am getting flashbacks to another thread about another form of mental abuse a few months earlier.

[Lorric]

Life's a funny thing.  Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal.  It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.

That said, every kid in my class who was a tactless bully is now a low-life with a dead end job and minimal future prospects.  Every one of the sly bullies may have become a little more successful, but they've pretty much carried on with their narcissistic/sociopathic behaviour in business.

I had a really strong group of friends - who I am still friends with today.  While we were all the "nerds," the "smart kids," the "band geeks," etc, and were bullied mercilessly in some cases, we're all quite successful now and courtesy of those bonds we were able to largely ignore the bull****, an option many other kids didn't have.

It's amusing, though. The 'popular' kids, for the most part, lead dead-end existences.  The few that are successful are still just as narcissistic/sociopathic as ever.  And now I work in a place where I spend the majority of my time investigating and criminally charging those same kinds of narcissistic/sociopathic clowns just when they think they're pretty much invulnerable.

Karma's a ***** =)

You're very lucky. Drifting away from my school friends is my greatest regret. It's complicated why it happened though, and not a story I want to tell, but a big part of why was beyond my control.

That was me in a lot of ways, I befriended the intelligent, including the most intelligent guy in the school, who was also the smallest guy. What a terrible combination! Attracted scum like moths to a flame. I was in the top class for everything, but my friends were even more intelligent and very helpful for me academically. And I got bullied all the way through school from start to finish almost every day except one year when I switched schools for the last year and it was actually a great school, and maybe my first year or so and after compulsory education ended and every single bully in the school left. I didn't want to mention the fact I got bullied, but when your story sounds so similar to mine I just had to.

Yes, of all the people who bullied me, most were absolutely braindead people. But not all.

You go get those people, I hate those people! 

Life's a funny thing.  Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal.  It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.

I am getting flashbacks to another thread about another form of mental abuse a few months earlier.

Is it the one about women, I'm not sure how to describe it, I think the word "gaslighting" got used.

[deathfun]

You're very lucky.

Totally just read that in the voice of the supply train driver in Starfox 64...

I can agree with braindead. Those that I knew of that weren't entirely braindead eventually realized how useless that behaviour was

in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.

Classic Nuke

[Lorric]

You're very lucky.

Totally just read that in the voice of the supply train driver in Starfox 64...

And now transferred to my mind.

[Apollo]

What newman said. Everytime someone (not necesarily a "friend") shouts a funny calling me a gay, I'll always offer them a blowjob or smth, and the escalation between the attempt to "shame" and my gay act sometimes reach really hilarious levels. Eventually however, they'll leave me alone, defeated, confused as to why the "shaming" never clicked. The obvious rarely reaches their minds: there would be nothing to be ashamed of.

I can see how that would work. Homophobia is rooted in fear as well as bigotry, so that could make them very uncomfortable.

Come to think of it, one of the bullies I know is probably a closeted bisexual. I'd like to see someone use that strategy on him.

[bobbtmann]

What newman said. Everytime someone (not necesarily a "friend") shouts a funny calling me a gay, I'll always offer them a blowjob or smth, and the escalation between the attempt to "shame" and my gay act sometimes reach really hilarious levels. Eventually however, they'll leave me alone, defeated, confused as to why the "shaming" never clicked. The obvious rarely reaches their minds: there would be nothing to be ashamed of.

I can see how that would work. Homophobia is rooted in fear as well as bigotry, so that could make them very uncomfortable.

Come to think of it, one of the bullies I know is probably a closeted bisexual. I'd like to see someone use that strategy on him.

I wouldn't count on it. I don't think shaming people will make them come out of the closet. If anything, they'll become politicians with an anti-gay agenda, just to disguise their sexual orientation.

[Apollo]

That wouldn't be shaming him, just responding to his attacks.

He'd probably get very uncomfortable as soon as he saw his gay slurs weren't working. Of course, his large size would make him fairly dangerous if he wanted to be.

[Mika]

Thought I might share something here

Somebody's parent telling them to punch the bullies in the belly has hidden wisdom in it - the bullying should not be tolerated at any circumstances, and it definitely is not normal. What should be taken care of though, is that the person whose parents' support this sort of stuff doesn't turn out to be a bully himself. Additionally, the current society somehow seems to support continuous bullying since the person being bullied cannot respond no matter how justified it were, and when something physical happens, teachers will think it's the victim's fault. Worse, some people can sort of snap, if they happen to have the built-in violence gene - this is not always visible, and the person perceived being nice and easy to bully might actually be the most dangerous person you know when out-of-control or having justified rage, and can really permanently disable or kill the bully at ease with no regrets afterwards.

To me it seems that most people start to really understand world around their 25s - some of the bullies will change to normal people, worst of the bullies tend to become rejects, and those who were bullied typically fare better, if they survive through their 18s. It is sad when they don't, and you get the sort of feeling that this shouldn't have happened. What doesn't change, is the damage what happens to the bullied person - he will not forget what the bullies were like when they were kids, and does not want to be reminded of that. Although, it is sort of weird to see what has happened to them, and how they have changed.

What it comes to Apollo being afraid to talk with a gay friend, I can sort of understand it for that age. But make sure though that you don't lose a good friend because of social stigma - you'll see things differently in years to come, and good friends are not easy to find. If you were wondering, yes, my life was hell between 5 and 15 years old - mental hell to be exact, not physical - everybody was scared to touch me mainly because of the my father's occupation. Things started to improve when I got to High School, in another village where I requested to be placed in the class which didn't have students from my home village. You could start normal social relations when they didn't have any sort of prejudices! When I got to the University, I could start completely from the scratch, and found a lot of nice people. Things have been steadily improving ever since, so there's hope for you all!

But I sort of miss the school system where it was OK to sit pupils in the stocks - talk about Medieval (this was in the 1980s)! Half an hour with wooden shacks around your ankles teaches some long term memory when you forgot to do your homework! (Seriously though, most of us thought of it being just fun) Or teachers lifting pupils to the coat rail when they pissed them off, or ordering us to RUN around the school RIGHT NOW (circumference about 300 metres) at -15 degrees (without shoes, remember it was RIGHT NOW) since you couldn't get the arithmetic tables right in your mind. Back then teachers did have authority at least, and bullying the teachers was the last sort of thing crossing in your mind My current teacher friends sort of comment that not all of that was without reason, actually, and they wish they could pull even half of it without getting an official warning.

[Aardwolf]

So uh... bit late here and only read bits of pieces, but...

In the OP, is Apollo using "bullying" in a general sense of "picking on"? Cuz I was almost never been "bullied" in school (i.e. by a single "bully"), but I've been on the receiving end of classlroom "culture" e.g. getting a nickname I absolutely despised, and having everyone (including the teacher) use it. And I've been on the giving end too