[Killer Whale]

In one paragraph, you have shown exactly why this project exists, you have demonstrated exactly what kind of ignorance regarding these issues is out there.

EDIT: What you just said was, in essence, that you are just as unreflected about the stories you play through as the people writing them. That's something that you should try to change if you want to be a part of this debate, and not just an interloper.

This is true.

Lorric, thank you for being a prime example of the kind of person that is part of the hate campaign against Ms Sarkeesian and this project. Thank you for being the exact kind of person that makes closing the comment sections for these videos on youtube and sensible sites like PAR necessary.

This is not.

Lorric, from my point of view, is the sort of person who disagrees with Ms Sarkeesian, and hence benefits from observing and taking part in the debate. He is not the person who is attacking her as a person and destroying the ability to engage in these discussions.


I see the point of this these discussions, and presumably these videos, as a way of showing people that sexism is not something that you choose, not a personality. But it is a deeply engrained trait in social behaviours and interactions. Women are frequently displayed as different to men in an inferior way without our even realising it. This video shows one way many of us don't see, ignore, or think unimportant but does in fact affect us and those of us who want to be fair on women can avoid this element that we didn't before think of as being as degrading as we thought.

Also, that link I posted and spoon's playing: It's not a mod; it's a fully fledged MMO.

[Lorric]

In one paragraph, you have shown exactly why this project exists, you have demonstrated exactly what kind of ignorance regarding these issues is out there.

EDIT: What you just said was, in essence, that you are just as unreflected about the stories you play through as the people writing them. That's something that you should try to change if you want to be a part of this debate, and not just an interloper.

This is true.

Lorric, thank you for being a prime example of the kind of person that is part of the hate campaign against Ms Sarkeesian and this project. Thank you for being the exact kind of person that makes closing the comment sections for these videos on youtube and sensible sites like PAR necessary.

This is not.

Lorric, from my point of view, is the sort of person who disagrees with Ms Sarkeesian, and hence benefits from observing and taking part in the debate. He is not the person who is attacking her as a person and destroying the ability to engage in these discussions.


I see the point of this these discussions, and presumably these videos, as a way of showing people that sexism is not something that you choose, not a personality. But it is a deeply engrained trait in social behaviours and interactions. Women are frequently displayed as different to men in an inferior way without our even realising it. This video shows one way many of us don't see, ignore, or think unimportant but does in fact affect us and those of us who want to be fair on women can avoid this element that we didn't before think of as being as degrading as we thought.

Also, that link I posted and spoon's playing: It's not a mod; it's a fully fledged MMO.

Thanks. That was nice of you.

I don't agree with EDIT part though. We'll leave the ignorance part up in the air, as that just comes down to yes you are / no I'm not stuff. But I do enjoy and can get deeply into a good in-game story and think about it long after play has stopped. It can really enhance a game. But I'll always take gameplay over story. I said in a different thread that I'd play a game with a terrible story and great gameplay, but not a great story and terrible gameplay. So I'm quite happy to play a game if it has great gameplay, even if all the story is is a vehicle to facilitate the gameplay.

If The E wants to teach anyone anything, he's not going to do it by alienating and dismissing people. Then it will just come down to a fist pumping and high-fiving session with all the people who agree with him which will accomplish nothing.

Oh, I was referring to Spoon's Wings Of Dawn mod actually if there was some confusion. I wonder if what I said describes the links, I didn't even click them. But now I see if it's an MMO and you can play as someone like that, that maybe it does. Amusing coincidence!

[Scourge of Ages]

Also, that link I posted and spoon's playing: It's not a mod; it's a fully fledged MMO.

He was talking about Wings of Dawn, which is quite fun, you should play it.

EDIT: I should really read all replies next time so I don't get pre-emptively ninja'd

[Lorric]

Also, that link I posted and spoon's playing: It's not a mod; it's a fully fledged MMO.

He was talking about Wings of Dawn, which is quite fun, you should play it.

EDIT: I should really read all replies next time so I don't get pre-emptively ninja'd

Well the link could be helpful.

In fact, everyone should click that link and grab it and play it! It's my favourite mod around here! 

[Killer Whale]

Oh yeah, right.
It was a bit difficult for me when I was playing it, but you're right, I should finish it.


Is Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite a damsel in distress as Ms Sarkeesian describes?

[Lorric]

Oh yeah, right.
It was a bit difficult for me when I was playing it, but you're right, I should finish it.


Is Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite a damsel in distress as Ms Sarkeesian describes?

I know The E likes her very much. He started a thread:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84188.0

Interesting topic title.

[An4ximandros]

 I'll drop this here and leave.

[Lorric]

I'll drop this here and leave.

That link is faulty.

I fixed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=HJihi5rB_Ek&mode=transport

[Killer Whale]

^404 not found

e: nvm

[Lorric]

^404 not found

Mine or his? Mine works, I checked it.

EDIT:

[General Battuta]

I'll drop this here and leave.

e for tone: c'mon son don't post and run

[Lorric]

I'll drop this here and leave.

e for tone: c'mon son don't post and run

Perhaps he is afraid that if he sticks his neck out, someone will tie a rope around it.

[Dragon]

Does that matter? If you play a game which objectifies, disempowers or otherwise degrades women, even in an absurd, satirical manner, isn't there the danger that it becomes comfortable to be in this situation? (not talking about any specific game here)

If you know how to "read" satire (and if the satire is done well), such games will call your attention to the issue rather than desensitize you to it. That's the difference between comedy and satire. Both get you laughing, but a comedy makes you laugh at a weak woman, and satire makes you laugh at stereotypes depicting her like that. This might not be the best explanation, but it's what I can think of at 3:26 o'clock.

[Lorric]

https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=HJihi5rB_Ek&mode=transport

I like that very much. Thank you An4ximandros.

[MP-Ryan]

Female characters are generally horribly portrayed in both science fiction and games, a phenomenon that is not unrelated (double negative ftw).

They typically suffer from one of either two problems:
1.  They are portrayed as a damsel in need of rescuing (there are variations on this theme; there are strong damsels too but the underlining characteristic is that they are always in need of rescuing from a male character, often the protagonist).
2.  They are Men With Boobs (e.g. the writer seeks to write a strong, non-damsel female and ends up writing what he - it is almost always a he - sees as a strong woman, which typically embodies all the characteristics of a man except the character is said to be female - and usually an attractive one at that).  The female version of Shepard in Mass Effect is a great example of this silliness.

There are a few male fantasy/sci-fi writers that have come close to accomplishing the creation of a believable strong female - Daenerys from A Song of Ice and Fire is a decent example, though still somewhat flawed - but in general the gaming industry and the science fiction realm is incredibly bad at writing women.  Until they get better, mainstream women audiences generally aren't going to take either medium very seriously, either.

Anyway, I think the original author of these talks is right on her money.  The gaming industry needs to develop some serious maturity around its characters, especially female characters, if it wants to develop the kind of widespread audience among women that it already has among men.  It would also help if some triple-A developers and publishers quit pandering to the barely-post-pubsecent-shallow-male population with their major titles.  Though that is getting better - games have really matured from what they used to be.

[General Battuta]

Games do even worse at the Bechdel-Wallace test in aggregate than movies do.

[General Battuta]

And really I think this is an artifact of the way (predominantly male) creators think about characters. The unmarked state, the prototypic clay from which characters issue forth, is a white straight male. Characters get traits slapped on to this base form to create a diverse cast, but the relationships are still generally protagonist-centric and prototype-centric. Even when there's a strong character who is a woman, she's probably going to have relationships mostly with male characters because she's the Other, the object, and it feels intuitively more probable for her to be connected to the subjective norm than to another Other. Even icons like Alyx Vance or Elizabeth from BSI fall into this trap.

It's like writers approach cast design the way they'd approach a D&D party - we need one of each class, where the classes are 'normal', 'woman', 'black', and, odds are, 'different normal'. Other configurations feel somehow improbable, and people even accuse them of 'Political Correctness' (whatever this means).

[deathfun]

The video in the original post, there was a section where it was zooming out from the crowd clapping, and there was only one guy there
He was looking around with a sort of "Can't not clap" look to him
I thought it was funny.

Moving on:
After watching the TED video again (watched it a while ago) I noticed some key things worth noting. While her original campaign was more against the subject matter of the games, it seems to have evolved into the community itself. "Gaming culture" was what stood out the most in the presentation as to me, that encompasses everything gaming (such as the communities involved)

Looking at my game collection though, 10 out of the 60 (PS3) have the option of being a female protagonist. Zero of which am I forced to be female.

[Spoon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=HJihi5rB_Ek&mode=transport

I thought this was excellent and much more agreeable than the way Sarkeesian presents her views.

and people even accuse them of 'Political Correctness' (whatever this means).

For someone I consider to be a smart person I keep being suprised how you have repeately expressed how you don't understand what political correctness means.
I don't think I have to explain it to you because I'm pretty sure you do know what it actually means. You just hate the word 

It would also help if some triple-A developers and publishers quit pandering to the barely-post-pubsecent-shallow-male population with their major titles.

Yeah no. That's never gonna happen and you know it.
They pander to them because that's what they get their money from. These's so called 'AAA' games aren't made to provide social commentary, they are giant cash cows that need to be milked over and over again.

But hey, on the plus side. At least in the new call of dooty, Dogs will be better represented than ever!

[Black Wolf]

Anyway, I think the original author of these talks is right on her money.  The gaming industry needs to develop some serious maturity around its characters, especially female characters, if it wants to develop the kind of widespread audience among women that it already has among men.

Question is, do they need/want to do this? There are a lot of very successful, very profitable gender specific marketing models - particularly to men (beer and professional sports being two really obvious ones) but also to women (the website Pinterest springs to mind, as does 80% of the fashion industry). Has anyone presented a market case for game developers to change their products? Is it worth pursuing the female demographic if doing so risks alienating their core consumer base?

Certainly you can make a moral or societal case for it, but that's not going to do anything to a game developer's bottom line.

[EDIT]Ninjaed by Spoon.