[Spoon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwBG2Dtpmk

I must thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Weeeeeeee booobies!

[Lorric]

I'll just drop this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8

 

Now something on a more serious note that is directly relevant to the "damsel in distress" subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la9i2np0WTU

EDIT: He's talking about the person you are E. I didn't realise that at first until he mentioned the kickstarter. So he actually talks about the abuse too, I only remembered this vid for the stuff about the games.

[Dragon]

Sexism in computer games, I can think of 2 straight of the bat, Duke Nukem and GTA!

Those were both clearly satirical examples (even if DNF didn't really do it well), and as such aren't really good examples. Overlord I and II are also very sexist, but it's one of many things they parody. They were written by a woman, BTW. Rihanna Pratchett, you might have heard or her father (she inherited his sense of humor, so both games are really worth playing). Those games were never intended to be taken seriously.

Publishers are the worse part of the game industry.

Not only game, media in general. Executive meddling has spoiled a number of movies, games, TV shows, even books. That's what makes internet really great in that regard, a publisher is no longer needed to sell a book or a game. An editor, of course, is sometimes useful, but there's a fine line they really shouldn't cross.

[The E]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la9i2np0WTU

EDIT: He's talking about the person you are E. I didn't realise that at first until he mentioned the kickstarter. So he actually talks about the abuse too, I only remembered this vid for the stuff about the games.

Okay. A teenager, desperate to show of his geek cred. Talking about feminism. HARDCORE FEMINISM, as he makes abundantly clear.

This is going to be good, isn't it (Not in the way you mean though, Lorric. This is going to be completely dreadful.).

His point: "There are plenty of female rolemodels in gaming".

Then he's arguing about how Ms Sarkeesian said that these do not exist (Hint: This was never said in any of the videos from the Tropes Vs Women series).

So, not only is he missing the point that was made by quite a margin, he argues against a strawman that he brought to the table. Good ****ing job.

I mean, yeah, sure, there are a few good female characters in games. Noone was disputing that, you moron. It was only the minor issue that these characters are few and far between that was under discussion.

So, Lorric. Why did you think that this was interesting? Did you post it as an example of gamers missing the point? Or did you actually think you were making a valuable contribution to this thread?

[Lorric]

I wanted to use it to point out that it is less few and far between than people think. Especially with him picking out older games rather than the newer ones of today where strong females are more common.

Alright then, if you're so knowledgable, why don't you come off the fence and tell us what you think?

[Polpolion]

I'd probably have stronger feelings on this if the couple games that I played that were mentioned were games that I took the content at all seriously. Anyway, I do hope she eventually covers more tropes. I do find these videos entertaining and insightful.

[Spoon]

One of my favorite gender inequalities is in Ragnarok Battle Offline (some random 3 player gameplay footage of stage 1). You can pick a male or female version of each of the classes, they both have the same skillset but completely different animations for attacks, skills and movement. Females in general do less damage (less muscle) but tend to be more agile on the flipside.
Females aren't inferior to their Male counterpart, they are just different.

[Killer Whale]

Now something on a more serious note that is directly relevant to the "damsel in distress" subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la9i2np0WTU

...

You know that rock you were talking about The E. That was kinda' nice and cosy...

[Spoon]

I'll just drop this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8

pfffhahaha

[NGTM-1R]

Alright then, if you're so knowledgable, why don't you come off the fence and tell us what you think?

He did. He has. This entire thread. Every single posting has made it abundantly clear what he thinks by either its support or its vehement opposition to opposing viewpoints. Would you care to make a comment that is not incredibly, painfully, please-god-tell-me-this-is-a-joke-or-I'm-going-to-blow-my-brains-out-across-my-monitor ignorant now? Or at least read the the thread?

[The E]

Alright then, if you're so knowledgable, why don't you come off the fence and tell us what you think?

What do you mean, "what I think". I said it right here:

Now, while I personally would have liked her to go more in depth in specific games, or on the topic in general, these videos are still very nice primer material to get one started on these topics.

I agree with everything said in Sarkeesians' piece. I think that examining the issues surrounding women in games and gaming is necessary, and that these examinations need to be distributed as far as possible.

I wanted to use it to point out that it is less few and far between than people think. Especially with him picking out older games rather than the newer ones of today where strong females are more common.

You're missing the point. The point Sarkeesian makes is that the vast majority of roles given to female characters in gaming  is not the role of protagonist. The existence of counterexamples does not invalidate this. That writers use variations on the "Damsel in distress" trope in games as a lazy shorthand to give the male protagonist a motivation.

What this idiot is arguing against, and what the many idiots out there hating on this do not understand is that at no point was it claimed that all games are guilty of casual or inadvertent misogynism, or that the use of the damsel in distress trope is automatically bad. It can be used as a valid and well-executed character hook in order to motivate a protagonist (See, for example, Red Dead Redemption), but the writers and designers have to use it intelligently and not just use it as a quick shortcut. It is the unreflected use of these storytelling standbys that's the problem, not the existence of these standbys by itself.

[Lorric]

To me it looked like you were just saying. "Look at this. *describes it* This is interesting. Discuss."

The line you quote seemed to me as "This is a good way to get started to get into the discussion."

Oh come on, don't say that guy is an idiot. He was trying to help her and spoke well. Even if you think he's wrong, that doesn't make him an idiot.

Me, I think this is a "problem" that will solve itself in time now that the female gamer base is growing and gaming stories are forever getting more complex. The damsel in distress mechanic is already fading away, though there is now a rash of scantily clad pretty girls in gaming that I think is the bigger problem, but again, I think this will eventually wear off now that graphical capability is not advancing so fast. I like complex and strong female characters. There's nothing wrong with pretty girls, but there is when they swamp the character types like they do. I would much rather have a female character in an RPG clad in armour who looks like she could kick your ass than a girl in what amounts to a bikini. However, I'd have no problem with both in the same game, then you'd have variety. Keep your pretty girls, but give me something different, give me a girl who's like mid 30s, with scars and some heavy muscle, that would be something different. A lack of muscle is something that annoys me, all these skinny girls, why not have a scantily clad girl with some muscle on her body, then I can take her seriously when she's wading through the bad guys. I think developers are lazy with female characters. They often feel like Generic Pretty Girl #1524.

There is one game which springs to mind though, Code of Princess, which I watched someone Let's play. This game features the titular character as the main protagonist, and she has the skimpiest outfit I think I've ever seen on a female video game character short of something like bikini beach volleyball or the like. And yet I came to like her character and the direction the game went in general when I watched the LP.

[Killer Whale]

Sexism in computer games, I can think of 2 straight of the bat, Duke Nukem and GTA!

Those were both clearly satirical examples (even if DNF didn't really do it well), and as such aren't really good examples. Overlord I and II are also very sexist, but it's one of many things they parody. They were written by a woman, BTW. Rihanna Pratchett, you might have heard or her father (she inherited his sense of humor, so both games are really worth playing). Those games were never intended to be taken seriously.

Does that matter? If you play a game which objectifies, disempowers or otherwise degrades women, even in an absurd, satirical manner, isn't there the danger that it becomes comfortable to be in this situation? (not talking about any specific game here)

[Killer Whale]

Oh come on, don't say that guy is an idiot. He was trying to help her and spoke well. Even if you think he's wrong, that doesn't make him an idiot.

But he really, really is. Or at least was acting like one.
His entire argument was based on refuting points which she did not ever make and he made no attempt to actually provide advice on what she could improve despite saying he was giving "constructive criticism".

[bobbtmann]

There's nothing wrong with pretty girls, but there is when they swamp the character types like they do. I would much rather have a female character in an RPG clad in armour who looks like she could kick your ass than a girl in what amounts to a bikini.

Did you watch the first video, or the second one at that? What comes to mind from that statement was her description of Zelda in one of the Zelda games. Zelda runs around dressed as a boy and is empowered. Then she switches her clothing to a dress, and becomes dis-empowered. A main character who's a woman but has masculine qualities to empower her is not really a solution. It's still saying that being violent or masculine is the way to go if you want to achieve anything.

In the last video she begins at describing why the western ideal of masculinity is not a good thing. That's not saying men are bad, mind you, but the script we've been handed is limiting and destructive to ourselves.

[The E]

Oh come on, don't say that guy is an idiot. He was trying to help her and spoke well. Even if you think he's wrong, that doesn't make him an idiot.

Missing the point of these specific videos entirely, misunderstanding why Tropes vs Women exists, that's what makes him an idiot.

Me, I think this is a "problem" that will solve itself in time now that the female gamer base is growing and gaming stories are forever getting more complex.

One would hope so. But consider this: A majority of gamers are women, but no concerted effort is being made to make large, high-profile games that treat women as more than motivation dispensers for the ruggedly handsome male protagonist. Therefore, beatings must continue and indeed increase until morale improves.

The damsel in distress mechanic is already fading away, though there is now a rash of scantily clad pretty girls in gaming that I think is the bigger problem, but again, I think this will eventually wear off now that graphical capability is not advancing so fast.

Art design will change because tech isn't advancing so much? No. This is a wrong assumption on so many levels that words fail me to describe it.

I like complex and strong female characters. There's nothing wrong with pretty girls, but there is when they swamp the character types like they do. I would much rather have a female character in an RPG clad in armour who looks like she could kick your ass than a girl in what amounts to a bikini. However, I'd have no problem with both in the same game, then you'd have variety. Keep your pretty girls, but give me something different, give me a girl who's like mid 30s, with scars and some heavy muscle, that would be something different. A lack of muscle is something that annoys me, all these skinny girls, why not have a scantily clad girl with some muscle on her body, then I can take her seriously when she's wading through the bad guys. I think developers are lazy with female characters. They often feel like Generic Pretty Girl #1524.

This is another point that will be raised in future installments of the tropes vs women series. Not this one.

[Lorric]

There's nothing wrong with pretty girls, but there is when they swamp the character types like they do. I would much rather have a female character in an RPG clad in armour who looks like she could kick your ass than a girl in what amounts to a bikini.

Did you watch the first video, or the second one at that? What comes to mind from that statement was her description of Zelda in one of the Zelda games. Zelda runs around dressed as a boy and is empowered. Then she switches her clothing to a dress, and becomes dis-empowered. A main character who's a woman but has masculine qualities to empower her is not really a solution. It's still saying that being violent or masculine is the way to go if you want to achieve anything.

In the last video she begins at describing why the western ideal of masculinity is not a good thing. That's not saying men are bad, mind you, but the script we've been handed is limiting and destructive to ourselves.

I suppose I should. I'm not familiar with the Zelda games, but I'll watch the videos. I wasn't expecting to get sucked in, but it's far from the first time on here, so here I go again. At least it's a subject that does genuinely interest me. When I watched the video that I linked into for the first time, I had simply chanced on it. And I've seen too many people who are just basically morons ranting about this kind of thing before so I never watched her first video expecting more of the same. So I'll watch, and hope for something refreshing because I've never seen anything more than hate-filled ranting about subjects the people don't even understand on this before, often clearly for their own agendas.

Meanwhile, something I want to post...



No.



Yes.

Guess who has the little girl voice and who has the strong voice.

Oh come on, don't say that guy is an idiot. He was trying to help her and spoke well. Even if you think he's wrong, that doesn't make him an idiot.

Missing the point of these specific videos entirely, misunderstanding why Tropes vs Women exists, that's what makes him an idiot.

Me, I think this is a "problem" that will solve itself in time now that the female gamer base is growing and gaming stories are forever getting more complex.

One would hope so. But consider this: A majority of gamers are women, but no concerted effort is being made to make large, high-profile games that treat women as more than motivation dispensers for the ruggedly handsome male protagonist. Therefore, beatings must continue and indeed increase until morale improves.

The damsel in distress mechanic is already fading away, though there is now a rash of scantily clad pretty girls in gaming that I think is the bigger problem, but again, I think this will eventually wear off now that graphical capability is not advancing so fast.

Art design will change because tech isn't advancing so much? No. This is a wrong assumption on so many levels that words fail me to describe it.

I like complex and strong female characters. There's nothing wrong with pretty girls, but there is when they swamp the character types like they do. I would much rather have a female character in an RPG clad in armour who looks like she could kick your ass than a girl in what amounts to a bikini. However, I'd have no problem with both in the same game, then you'd have variety. Keep your pretty girls, but give me something different, give me a girl who's like mid 30s, with scars and some heavy muscle, that would be something different. A lack of muscle is something that annoys me, all these skinny girls, why not have a scantily clad girl with some muscle on her body, then I can take her seriously when she's wading through the bad guys. I think developers are lazy with female characters. They often feel like Generic Pretty Girl #1524.

This is another point that will be raised in future installments of the tropes vs women series. Not this one.

Well, whatever. But I really don't like the way you dismissed him as soon as you saw him. That annoyed me more than anything, you'd passed judgement on him before he even opened his mouth. But it's not really worth getting hung up on him.

Nobody's really figured out how to capitalise on that female gamer base. Everyone is used to catering for a male gamer base. Eventually, someone will make a blockbuster that does capitalise on that female base, and cash in big, and others will see that, and then we'll go from there. There's a gap in the market. Someone will fill it eventually.

The point I was trying to make is I feel this pretty-girl thing is a bit of a fad. Everyone wants to make these pretty girls now that technology has advanced to this point. They will still be made, but not in the smothering numbers they are now. After they become nothing special. After they lose that eye-catching appeal. Maybe it's more a hope than a genuine feeling though. After all, I don't like them. But I've never seen any true support for them. It doesn't feel to me like gamers think these girls are the best and better than all the rest at all. It's not something I can defend with any hard evidence, so I guess I'm just hoping. It can be so much better.

[The E]

I suppose I should. I'm not familiar with the Zelda games, but I'll watch the videos. I wasn't expecting to get sucked in, but it's far from the first time on here, so here I go again. At least it's a subject that does genuinely interest me. When I watched the video that I linked into for the first time, I had simply chanced on it. And I've seen too many people who are just basically morons ranting about this kind of thing before so I never watched her first video expecting more of the same. So I'll watch, and hope for something refreshing because I've never seen anything more than hate-filled ranting about subjects the people don't even understand on this before, often clearly for their own agendas.

[EvidenceOfFault]

I looked at her videos on youtube back when it first hit the fan, and was very much unimpressed. In particular, she tried to decree what I was supposed to think, which is a big no-no, and she made up words for perceived issues instead of showing these issues actually mattered.

This new video, however, is excellent. The language is clear, the issues are well documented, and I am given space and time to make up my own mind as to what I think about it.

After giving it some thought, I fully agree with Ms Sarkeesian. I have but two nitpicks:
1. Violence against women is not epidemic. It is endemic, which is arguably worse in this case.
2. Her focus may ultimately be too narrow. Most of what she criticizes could be subsumed under "terrible writing". There's plenty of that even without misogyny.

In conclusion, I'd say that her kickstarter money is well used. Her videos have improved and her message is better off for it.

[Lorric]

I suppose I should. I'm not familiar with the Zelda games, but I'll watch the videos. I wasn't expecting to get sucked in, but it's far from the first time on here, so here I go again. At least it's a subject that does genuinely interest me. When I watched the video that I linked into for the first time, I had simply chanced on it. And I've seen too many people who are just basically morons ranting about this kind of thing before so I never watched her first video expecting more of the same. So I'll watch, and hope for something refreshing because I've never seen anything more than hate-filled ranting about subjects the people don't even understand on this before, often clearly for their own agendas.

Basically guilty as charged. But I'm speaking the truth.

First one's under the belt. Gonna watch the second one now.