[Bobboau]

I have noticed a fairly self destructive tendency in western civilization, there is a fairly large vein of people who utterly love hating their culture. I cannot tell you how many times I remember people being all boastfull about how much of a horrible place America was when I was growing up, and so much art with that attitude (more general than just against america), sometimes it spreads to the human race. I mean we all have run into the guy who likes to boast about how 2edgee4u he is by calling the human race a virus. maybe this is more wide spread and i only notice it in westerners because thats all I've been exposed to, but I just can't help but think someone in rural africa with that attitude would just not survive very long.

tl;dr
it seems like selfhatred is treated as an auto enhancer for a perssons "deep" stat.

[Luis Dias]

There's nothing worse like using a "depression" to bolster your creds. For teens I think there's a word for that kind of **** and I can't recall. When I am really depressed the last thing I do is share my thoughts as if I'm spelling the truth or something. I know the condition is entirely personal and I have the sufficient rationality to understand that it is absolutely pretensious to generalize my own predicaments.

However keep in mind that anyone in a depressing state is much less in tune with the rest of the world and thus his her thoughts will be subsquentely much more mysanthropic...

[Sandwich]

Oh no Sambo, you don't get to post that and just walk away.

Norway. Sweden. Australia. Denmark. Belgium. New Zealand. All "post-Christian" nations with very high standards of living and highly desirable to live in. Evidence of "crumbling" please.

Sure, quality of life is often high in most civilized countries, but I'm not looking at quality of life... that's almost always a depiction of how "good" a situation can be in a country if everything at the personal/family level is hunky-dory. I'm looking at what I guess could be called "cultural health". Society. We idolize these Hollywood stars whose lives more often than not are frankly horrific role models. Suicide rates, kids going on murderous rampages at school, divorce becoming the typical end to "lifelong" marriage vows, adultery, drugs, etc - the usual suspects. These are the things I see that, frankly, make me glad to live in a vaguely sane society like Israel, where my wife is actually safe and has no need for fear if she decides to go jogging around the neighborhood at 9pm.

[Lorric]

@ Bobboau, Luis, I'm with you.

It's not "deep" or "cool", it's pathetic.

Here in the UK, I know I live in one of the best countries on Earth, and I am eternally thankful that the dice roll of life put me here. Whatever the doom-and-gloom media and people who haven't got a clue how lucky they are have to say.

[Phantom Hoover]

Ooooh, now that's a provocative line to go down. I mean, I'm pretty sure this is just your own cultural biases kicking in (I know I have a probably unreasonably positive view of Scotland myself) but hopefully someone older and wiser than myself to go into the details.

[The E]

Sure, quality of life is often high in most civilized countries, but I'm not looking at quality of life... that's almost always a depiction of how "good" a situation can be in a country if everything at the personal/family level is hunky-dory. I'm looking at what I guess could be called "cultural health". Society. We idolize these Hollywood stars whose lives more often than not are frankly horrific role models. Suicide rates, kids going on murderous rampages at school, divorce becoming the typical end to "lifelong" marriage vows, adultery, drugs, etc - the usual suspects. These are the things I see that, frankly, make me glad to live in a vaguely sane society like Israel, where my wife is actually safe and has no need for fear if she decides to go jogging around the neighborhood at 9pm.

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Please point out how what you said is any different from the sentiment expressed in this (apocryphal, but nonetheless ancient) statement. Then show how your concerns are more valid than those offered there.

In other words, please prove that the way that culture evolves is in any shape or form a sign of it coming to an end (If you choose a word like "crumbling" or "eroding", this implies a certain degree of certainty that complete dissolution is somewhere in the future).

EDIT: Not that you'll be actually able to convince me. I have a deep distrust towards philosophies that elevate the past to such a degree that the present seems unbearably degraded and headed for certain doom. While I personally do not like some of the changes that have happened over the past few decades, I am firmly of the opinion that a culture without change is one without a future, and that trying to steer culture (which is as amorphous a blob as you can find) is doomed to failure from the start.

Suicide rates, kids going on murderous rampages at school, divorce becoming the typical end to "lifelong" marriage vows, adultery, drugs, etc - the usual suspects. These are the things I see that, frankly, make me glad to live in a vaguely sane society like Israel, where my wife is actually safe and has no need for fear if she decides to go jogging around the neighborhood at 9pm.

I'm going to requote this piece of your post here, because I think it deserves a more in-depth look.

(All following stats for Germany)
Suicide rates: Have steadily fallen in the past 30 years, from 18.000 in 1980, to 10.000 in 2010.
Divorce rates: Has risen from ~10% in 1960, to a relatively stable niveau of ~50% over the past decade. Cause here is a massive shift in the default family model, one that came with increased emancipation for women.
I can't for the life of me figure out why marriage shouldn't be something that we can dissolve if it doesn't work out.

Adultery: I have no idea. It's not a crime (so it isn't tracked in the relevant stats, and thus is probably part of the divorce rate), but I am pretty sure that the actual rates haven't changed much. Now, you may be of the opinion that someone with nonstandard relationships may be doing something wrong, but "adultery"? Please.

Drugs: Drug use has been steady, with a small trend towards fewer users (and corresponding fewer deaths). I also have difficulty seeing drug use by itself as a huge problem. Someone getting high I don't care about. Someone being criminalized for doing so is a different story. Drug use should, in my opinion, be legalized so that it can be done safely and in control.

Criminality: Sees an overall decrease, but also a shift in the type of crimes being committed. Violent crimes, while becoming less frequent, have also become on average more violent, while "white collar" crimes like various con schemes have seen an increase (Due to increased frequency and prosecution of net crimes)

[Luis Dias]

Well cultures do degrade over time. The trick that history invented was to constantly invent new "barbarians" who were way fresher and more creative, stronger, not corrupted but enlightened by sheer belief in their own myths, religions, ideology, etc. who then overran the status quo degenerated corrupted empires... and then those barbaric new kingdoms become the new empires, etc. We all see how capitalism understands this dynamic and incorporates it in its logic.

However, we are dealing increasingly with a "World Order", a Fukoyama kind of world usually called "Globalization". And this hegemonity means that the empire is just stretching to the entirety of the planet. I wonder if there is any space left for the new "barbarians" to challenge the current status quo. In the last half of the 20th century we had at least the challenge of the Soviet Union and the communists to keep some check, but not now.

[Phantom Hoover]

This kind of sweeping social commentary is exactly the kind of thing I'm inclined to trust when coming out of the mouth of an architect with no demonstrated academic credentials in the thing he's claiming extensive knowledge of!

[Luis Dias]

And why should I trust the incredible critical analytical capacity that you are claiming to have* about my words at all?

* Yes, I know, you didn't, but then again neither did I claim anything you said I claimed and that didn't stop you from making that up.

But to anyone who cares about this particular trait, what I am referring to is a very old idea that has been verified so many times that it's mostly taken as a fact. The story of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire (Gibbon) is a very famous book that drives its analysis from this idea, formulated by Ibn Khaldun in the 14th century here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asabiyyah

Ibn Khaldun uses the term Asabiyyah to describe the bond of cohesion among humans in a group forming community. The bond, Asabiyyah, exists at any level of civilization, from nomadic society to states and empires.[3] Asabiyyah is most strong in the nomadic phase, and decreases as civilization advances.[3] As this Asabiyyah declines, another more compelling Asabiyyah may take its place; thus, civilizations rise and fall, and history describes these cycles of Asabiyyah as they play out.[3]

Ibn Khaldun argues that each dynasty (or civilization) has within itself the seeds of its own downfall. He explains that ruling houses tend to emerge on the peripheries of great empires and use the much stronger `asabiyya present in those areas to their advantage, in order to bring about a change in leadership. This implies that the new rulers are at first considered "barbarians" by comparison to the old ones. As they establish themselves at the center of their empire, they become increasingly lax, less coordinated, disciplined and watchful, and more concerned with maintaining their new power and lifestyle at the centre of the empire—i.e, their internal cohesion and ties to the original peripheral group, the `asabiyya, dissolves into factionalism and individualism, diminishing their capacity as a political unit. Thus, conditions are created wherein a new dynasty can emerge at the periphery of their control, grow strong, and effect a change in leadership, beginning the cycle anew.

This is nothing new. It's a very basic social insight, and I don't think an architect is not entitled to know these things.

[Nuke]

I guess from my own perspective, as someone who is Catholic but is having some issues right now, what bums me out the most about declining church attendance in a lot of places is seeing so many of these beautiful old inner-city churches essentially being abandoned as different parishes are merged or shut down.  All else aside, organized religion has produced or funded countless spectacular works of art and architecture over the centuries--we're talking some of the most notable pieces of any given culture--and I think we'd be losing something very tangible and valuable if that were to eventually fade away.

I'm a staunch atheist, and I 100% agree with this.

I make a point to visit any major religious site (Cathedral, monastery, whatever) when I'm near one, because I like to be absolutely blown away by the artistry.

i take the other side of this stance with my nuke the vatican policy. anything tainted by religion needs to be annihilated.

[Luis Dias]

That would mean you'd have to wipe out the entire plan.... oh right, forget it.

[swashmebuckle]

This is the best time to be alive (as a human) in all of history. If you're a polar bear you're pretty screwed, but they eat people so **** them.

As for people who enjoy criticizing their own countries, I would argue that far from being a self-destructive tendency, that is one of the best qualities you could hope for in your fellow citizens. It might make everybody cringe to hear pampered adolescents whinge about how everything in their lives is ****ty, but it's super important to let them feel things out and establish that dissenting voices should not and will not be silenced. It's people who immediately rush to the defense of their country from any perceived slight that you have to be worried about.

Can't speak for everyone in every nation, but IMO the counter-culture is by far the best part of American culture (besides our giant balls of twine) and it has been from the start.

[Nuke]

meh, I kinda tried to give nukeism a try but at the end of the very first sentence I was actually getting more and more depressed. That kinda took my sarcasm out of the loop at it just dwindled into a miserable list of depressing realities shoved off without wit, emotion or intelligence.

I agree with the rating. Perhaps Im just tired.

only by busting up long held illusions does the reality of the world come through. so its better just to shut up and suffer than to lie to yourself and others about the state of things, or carry on existing illusions. of course once you done that how you feel about things becomes irrelevant. you are just another iterations in a for loop started by our ancient ancestors, the first germs. you could also try to balance out the depressing crap with drugs, whores, and other questionable activities.

[Scotty]

I can't help but wonder if I fall under one of those undesirable headings on account of having a boyfriend.  Sandwich, your thoughts?

[Grizzly]

make me glad to live in a vaguely sane society like Israel, where my wife is actually safe and has no need for fear if she decides to go jogging around the neighborhood at 9pm.

Oh no Sambo, you don't get to post that and just walk away.

Norway. Sweden. Australia. Denmark. Belgium. New Zealand. All "post-Christian" nations with very high standards of living and highly desirable to live in. Evidence of "crumbling" please.

Sure, quality of life is often high in most civilized countries, but I'm not looking at quality of life... that's almost always a depiction of how "good" a situation can be in a country if everything at the personal/family level is hunky-dory. I'm looking at what I guess could be called "cultural health". Society. We idolize these Hollywood stars whose lives more often than not are frankly horrific role models. Suicide rates, kids going on murderous rampages at school, divorce becoming the typical end to "lifelong" marriage vows, adultery, drugs, etc - the usual suspects. These are the things I see that, frankly, make me glad to live in a vaguely sane society like Israel, where my wife is actually safe and has no need for fear if she decides to go jogging around the neighborhood at 9pm.

I could make a long post about Israel is a country which relies a lot on foreign aid, how it's religion seems to affect it's foreign policies, how the economy has been crumbling due to a massive commitment towards bombing the **** out of Palestenians because a lot of people do not feel that your last sentence is actually true for the country they live in...

This is the best time to be alive (as a human) in all of history. If you're a polar bear you're pretty screwed, but they eat people so **** them.

'Oi! You humans napalm, bomb, and shoot the **** out of everything, and then you don't even utilize the meat to it's fullest! It's all a matter of perspective!

Agree with the rest though. Your country is part of your idendity. Being able to critize even one small part of your own identity is a lot better then that hatefull combination of ignorance and arrogance.

[Mikes]

And there goes the thread! 

<cue applause>

The thread will only go downhill if we allow it to go downhill. If everyone remains civilized and respectful, I see no reason we can't have a legitimate discussion.

"The rock will only roll downhill if I allow it to roll downhill"

- Sisyphus

[Nuke]

there isnt a rock big enough.

hint: it needs to be the size of the earth and made entirely out of antimatter.

[Sandwich]

I can't help but wonder if I fall under one of those undesirable headings on account of having a boyfriend.  Sandwich, your thoughts?

Ok, this whole post is presuming you're male, otherwise why would I find issue with a girl with a boyfriend, right?

Understand something about my beliefs and where I'm coming from. I'm what's commonly termed a "Messianic Jew", which means a person of Jewish lineage who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, etc - a Jewish Christian, if you prefer. I hold the Bible to be the word of God, which has parts that should be taken literally, and parts that are poetic in nature and should not be taken literally.

That said, let me be blunt. It is my belief that homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible. I don't hate homosexuals (the people), but there are certainly things that the homosexual community does that I hate, such as how they shove their beliefs and opinions into people's faces through Gay Pride Parades. My kids don't need to be exposed to that (just like they don't need to see PG-13 or R rated movies at 5 years old).

To give some perspective here, in a similar fashion I believe that Islam is a deception by Satan. That doesn't mean that I hate Muslims - I hate Islam, but I love Muslims and want what is best for them according to what I truly believe to be true.

However, none of that means that I am going to shove my beliefs down anybody's throat. When asked, as you just did, I won't hold back from sharing my POV, but otherwise, I'll let my way of life speak for itself.

So to directly answer your question, your chosen way of life is what I find undesirable, but not you yourself. Heck, I have "undesirable" things in my life, habitual sins that have been a lifelong struggle. Thankfully, neither your actions nor mine can separate us from the unconditional love of God. He hates the sin but loves the sinner.

[Scotty]

I certainly harbor no ill feelings (and am very much male, yes), but that's not exactly what I was asking.  I'm just as certain that I don't shove my beliefs and opinions into peoples' faces on that particular subject, given that you had to start your post with a caveat about whether I was actually homosexual or not!

Now, with that in mind, could it not be entirely possible that when society looks as if it's crumbling, it's that an no more: that it just looks like it, as a direct result of invasive, pervasive, and omnipresent media and networking of the modern world?  The more of the world you can see, the more of the world you won't agree with.  That doesn't make it bad, or impending social collapse, it makes it different.  If there's one thing that false claims of the fall of society have had shadowing them at every turn (when it wasn't actually true, see: European Dark Ages) is improved reach and speed of communication.

[Black Wolf]

*Words* 

Wow. I get that he asked and all that but still...

I find that there's this massive, massive disconnect between religious people - properly into it the way Sambo obviously is - and the rest of us. You really believe that, don't you? Like as a factual piece of information like the sky being blue or something. And yet, I read it and I just see it as utterly, utterly ridiculous.

I don't even really have a point here. It's just that reading your post really brings home the sheer scale of the gulf between your view of the world and my own. :-\