[Stryke 9]

Daveb: We're not imperialist? Then what's with our President making dire threats about what will happen unless we get immunity from war crimes tribunals? What's our personal beef with Cuba, a tiny island just off our coast, whose one crime is to refuse to accept the sweat-shop yoke we put on all tiny non-European countries, who even goes so far as to reject the god of money we worship so much? Why is it that our government looks the other way when Amerikan oil companies set up bloody dictatorships in which they ruthlessly massacre any opposition (Nigeria, among others), and howls with rage when we see a native bloody dictatorship suppressing its own people (Iraq, among others)?

Intolerant? What kind of tolerant nation places embargoes in the way we do? What kind of tolerant nation attempts to keep its minorities in ghettoes by incentive and economic enslavement, and trains cops to hunt them like dogs and call it "profiling"?

What kind of "tolerant" nation sets up the bigoted religious beliefs of the powerful few as the impartial law of all? What crime is polygamy? Grass-smoking? Loitering?

[CODEDOG ND]

Originally posted by Top Gun


Did i ever say that I supported it? No It's nice that you feel the need to judge every British person by the actions comitted by a ruling elite that was certainly not representitive of the majority of British people. Hell Elections weren't even fair in those days.

And this gives you the right to judge America and its policies?  Rest of Europe and Britian needs to keep to its own business and worry about their own problems and not ours.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by daveb



Now, last time I checked there were no voting booths, or Senators from Vietnam.

That's an irrelevant point because America lost the war, who knows what it would have turned out like if that hadn't.

Originally posted by daveb
Vietnam/Cambodia was in fact a clear example of us taking proactive steps to secure the area from the expansion of Communism. Ask some Cambodian children about how they felt about the Soviet Union. Oh that's right you can't because the Khmer Rouge kicked most of their heads in when they were infants :/  

First of all the Khamer Rouge had nothing to do with the Soviets or the Vietnamese. Yes they were highly insane but ironically it was the Vietnamese (evil communists) that removed them from power. Get your facts straight. If you're going to play the emotion card then I'd like to ask what most of the the rural Vietnamese infants thought about America's war effort; Only I can't because they were Napalmed by the americans or Poisoned by leaf removing solution

Originally posted by daveb
As for arming Saddam and the Mujahedin - read my previous post. We do what we think is the best thing for securing things at the time.

Even if it means arming Fanatics. It was well known that the people who were armed were not rational but as long as it prevents the expansion of communism or Un friendly nation then It's worth all the suffereing inflicted on the population by heavily armed madmen.

[daveb]

What kind of tolerant nation attempts to keep its minorities in ghettoes by incentive and economic enslavement, and trains cops to hunt them like dogs and call it "profiling"?

I think you might need to adjust your tin foil hat. If you really believe there's some uber Whitey conspiracy to keep the black man down, I respectfully suggest you've been watching too much MTV. Almost every single minority group in this country has excelled. This is especially evident in non-American African immigrants. Historically they are very successful here. In fact there are quite a few essays out there about the growing hostilities between immigrant Africans and African Americans because the immigrants don't seem to be suffering from the same problems. I guess our anti-minority policy must be pretty darn selective.

What kind of "tolerant" nation sets up the bigoted religious beliefs of the powerful few as the impartial law of all? What crime is polygamy? Grass-smoking? Loitering?

Name some of these bigoted religious beliefs which are written in law. Disallowing loitering is a sign of oppression? Come on...  FWIW, I don't agree with the War on Some Drugs at all. As for polygamy, I'd hardly say that represents the bias of only the "powerful few".

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
What crime is polygamy? Grass-smoking? Loitering?

Add the "DMCA" to that list and the scourge of WIPO

[Stryke 9]

Polygamy violates nearly every Protestsnt faction's religious codes. There is absolutely no other reason for it to be illegal. Refusing to compulsorily stand up and salute the flag, partly because of the "under God" part, nearly got me expelled from my school. Tell me how that fits into your worldview of Amerika being an open-minded place committed to justice.

Tell me why marijuana smokers get longer jail terms than murderers, or why there are more of them in jail than pretty much any other type of criminal.

EDIT: It doesn't matter whether it's the prudishness of only a few or all but one. if you do no harm, it's not a crime, it's harassment by state. In any nation that was truly tolerant, I could go out absolutely naked if I wanted to- little old ladies in tennis shoes are not SUPPOSED to be the arbiters of law, sorry to say. There's a difference between that and hitting someone with a fire axe.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by daveb
Name some of these bigoted religious beliefs which are written in law.

What about "Fornication and other sexually repressive Laws", "Abstinence only education"?

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by CODEDOG ND


Now your from the UK right?  Well, I don't think Britian should talk about imperialism.  Seems they had a nice little empire awhile back.

It was 25% of the worlds population and land and if i want to talk about the Empire and imperialism i will .

Still Americans business in regards to the War on Terrorism is British problem, Bin Laden tried to hijack planes in Britian and use them to blow up Big Ben etc, it was lucky we grounded all the flights and also we are helping in this war and we'll be helping in Iraq when we finish the job started in 1991 and nobody is gonna stop that happening, not all the hippies protesting at Nuclear sub bases, not the Euro Zone.

[daveb]

> Add the "DMCA" to that list and the scourge of WIPO.

Not that this is particularly relevant to this discussion, but : Its worth noting - the DMCA, the PMRC, and the highly insane CBDTPA were and are _all_ sponsored by Liberal Democrats

[CODEDOG ND]

Originally posted by Top Gun


What about "Fornication and other sexually repressive Laws", "Abstinence only education"?

Because of the deadly sexual transmitted diseases that are everywhere.  I don't know about in your country but in ours or at least in my state you still have to take a blood test when you apply for a marriage lisence.  

The word "Under God" in the pledge did not come about till the 1950's when the US was up against the atheist dominate USSR.  Banning the pledge is a little too far.  Just using the old pledge would be better.

[Stryke 9]

"Helping in Iraq"? By overthrowing the local government and installing one that pretends that the nation doesn't hate us? It's none of our business what Saddam does in his own country- he took it over, the people are still the majority, if they wanted him out they'd throw him out.

It's an act of unforgivable rudeness, where I come from, to advocate the overthrow of any nation you're not currently in. I mean, really. What'd the Iraquis do to you?

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by daveb
Not that this is particularly relevant to this discussion, but : Its worth noting - the DMCA, the PMRC, and the highly insane CBDTPA were and are _all_ sponsored by Liberal Democrats

I never once expressed support for the democrats, both parties (Democrats and Republicans) are equally sold out, just to different people.

[daveb]

Tell me why marijuana smokers get longer jail terms than murderers, or why there are more of them in jail than pretty much any other type of criminal.

Like I said, I don't believe in the War on Some Drugs.

These are all horrible, vile, atrocious violations you've listed. Having to say the Pledge? Horror!  You're going to go ahead and call "anti-freedom" because the overwhelming majority of Americans (who are overwhelmingly Christian) don't support polygamy? That's just grasping at straws.  I don't know what they're putting in the water these days, but how the younger generation has been so thoroughly convinced that the US is "oppressive" is baffling to me.  Try whining about "I don't like religious zealots" in Saudi Arabia and you'll have the idea of freedom driven home very quickly.

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
"Helping in Iraq"? By overthrowing the local government and installing one that pretends that the nation doesn't hate us? It's none of our business what Saddam does in his own country- he took it over, the people are still the majority, if they wanted him out they'd throw him out.

It's an act of unforgivable rudeness, where I come from, to advocate the overthrow of any nation you're not currently in. I mean, really. What'd the Iraquis do to you?

They tried to, the rebellion was strong after 1991, when they thought we'd help them, he killed them and used chemcial weapons on them majority means nothing, he has the troops and what did the Iraqius do to us? Well ask the confirmed victims of Saddamns dirty scud he fired at our troops.

Saddamn has biological and chemical weapons and if we do nothing he'll use them and the develop nukes and you can watch London get nuked because you thought it was "rude" to stop it. How can you be so blind to what that madman is doing? He doesnt ban UN weapons Inspectors because he really believes they are spies, he bans them so they dont find he weapons of MASS destruction.

[Stryke 9]

Originally posted by CODEDOG ND


Because of the deadly sexual transmitted diseases that are everywhere.  I don't know about in your country but in ours or at least in my state you still have to take a blood test when you apply for a marriage application.  

Is it YOUR business what so-and-so catches from screwing their unmarried neighbor? First of all, these were all illegal BEFORE VDs flourished, second of all once you're an adult, YOU'RE A ****ING ADULT. CAPABLE OF TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF. If you're not, you belong in a mental institution, not society. If a fully capable adult can't take measures to avoid getting diseases from ****ing, or can't stop on their own if need be, then it's their own fault. Having the law lead them by the hand is insulting to the intelligence, as well as despotic. It frankly isn't your business if I bang 30 hookers a night and catch every below-the-waist disease known to man. It never is, no matter who you are. Sure, if I'm sleeping with you, I have a moral obligation to tell you I'm screwed up, but that's a personal moral issue, not a legal one, and my partners can take measures to find out, anyway (such as the aforementioned blood tests). Just because there's no law regulating my ucking habits doesn't mean I'm necessarily gonna run around humping anything with two or more legs anyway. If it does, like I said- I'm not a consenting adult, I'm an imbecile. Still my problem, not yours.

[TheVirtu]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
"Helping in Iraq"? By overthrowing the local government and installing one that pretends that the nation doesn't hate us? It's none of our business what Saddam does in his own country- he took it over, the people are still the majority, if they wanted him out they'd throw him out.

It's an act of unforgivable rudeness, where I come from, to advocate the overthrow of any nation you're not currently in. I mean, really. What'd the Iraquis do to you?

Yes smart idea, leave Iraq alone and let them acquire weapons of mass destruction and USE THEM ON US!

[daveb]

It's none of our business what Saddam does in his own country- he took it over, the people are still the majority, if they wanted him out they'd throw him out.

Oh really now? And I suppose there was nothing we should have done to Hitler because he was killing Jews "in his own country". How can you possibly think that there wouldn't be many more megadeaths every year if the West didn't intervene? How can you say its the morally right thing to do?

[daveb]

I never once expressed support for the democrats, both parties (Democrats and Republicans) are equally sold out, just to different people.

I know   I was just trying to draw the comparison between liberalism and _real_ anti-freedom.

[Stryke 9]

Daveb: So, your argument is "Well, other countries are even worse than us!!"? That's just weak, I've gotta say. If despots couldn't think up better, they'd be dead in a hurry. So why's it a legitimate excuse here?

Zeronet: They tried, and failed. They were a minority (rebels always are). But the Iraqi people far outnumber soldiers and poison gas bombs. It's their business, not ours. I think we all know about the last time the U.S. tried to be Superman coming to a nation's rescue. People have been talking about it the whole time. And, as I recall, it turned out the people of that nation didn't want to be "saved", after all... it starts with a "V" and ends with an "M". They chose their own government, so we massacred them. We thought it was an oppressive, murderous government  then, too, if you'll remember

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by daveb
Try whining about "I don't like religious zealots" in Saudi Arabia and you'll have the idea of freedom driven home very quickly.

Yes and why is the Saudi government continually having oil bought from it and having arms sold to them by the west? I'd sooner be in Iraq and express a dislike for religious Zealots, it's a surprizingly secular country. Saddam's teen role model was Stalin (who wasn't exactly a religious Zealot). Not that that any of this means he's not a bad leader, it's just interesting.