Author Topic: Descent on Steam!  (Read 18886 times)

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Offline jr2

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I enjoy CDs and VHS tapes as much as the next guy, but they're a dying medium. We've already seen physical PC games die out almost entirely. Even non-Steam games don't even really use the CD anymore, as they either activate on Origin or on Blizzard's Battle.net. Physical CDs and DVDs are also dying out, with things like iTunes, MP3 players, Netflix, etc.

Even console games are going the digital distribution route. Microsoft and Sony are already planning to completely do away with physical media altogether. This is the 21st century and times are changing, for better or worse (I'd say better). The days of rewinding your VHS tape are quickly coming to an end, my friend.

This only holds true if the network infrastructure can grow with demand. As long as there are rural areas without reliable broadband access, there will be a market for physical media. Right now, the net cannot compete in terms of reliability with DVDs or Blurays when it comes to delivering big content when the customer wants it.

Also note that MP3s and digital downloads require a greater deal of technological ability than CDs, DVDs or Blurays, as those are very simple technologies to explain.

http://gizmodo.com/how-comcast-twc-will-end-your-all-you-can-internet-buff-1523899968

http://gizmodo.com/why-the-comcast-time-warner-cable-merger-is-even-worse-1522096469

300GB caps.  They aren't enforcing it now, but after swallowing TWC, they probably will (they are currently 'testing' it in certain markets).  I hope Google Fiber takes off and scares the bejeebers out of them and their nefarious merger is blocked.  :ick:

 
I find it telling that you consider a viewpoint that doesn't align with yours as "subverted".

I don't consider opposing viewpoints subverted. What I consider subverted is that when consumers applaud a platform which has fundamentally robbed them of their rights.
Specifically, the rights to sell or trade their purchase as they would any other piece of traditional media. And the argument that digital games fall outside of traditional media is irrelevant because store-bought games that require steam are likewise not trade-able or resell-able.

What's telling is when someone supports Steam but not Origin when both are as objectively bad as the other. Or did you forget the fact you had to sign away more rights as a consumer and as a  citizen of the free world when you contractually agreed to not join any class action lawsuits against Valve?

No rights to resell or trade the products you've purchased?
Signing away your legal rights?
What's next?

You want your games to be your, that's great.  Meanwhile, a good deal of the world has moved on, and calling something "fundamentally not in [our] interest" because you in particular disagree with the way it's handled does no favors for the discussion at hand.  I happen to like Steam and everything that comes with it, but with phrasing and an attitude like that, reasonable debate is nearly impossible - as the circular discussion here indicates.  We get it.  You don't like Steam's implementation of DRM, and you'd rather have a disc in your own hand.  Good for you.  There's no need to piss in anyone else's cornflakes.

Actual debate is impossible when neither side is interested in changing their opinion. But I'm not entering a debate, I'm expressing and defending an opinion. You and many individuals here aren't debating either because you likewise have probably formed an opinion and have no intention of changing it. So I'm afraid there is no high ground to stand upon dude.

In order for a service like Steam to be something I'd get behind, it would need to be something like Netflix. Flat, low-cost subscription for full catalog access. Perhaps with on-demand style rates for new releases.
No illusion of actually buying media.  Until such time that it changes to such a model it's just a service in the guise of a store, selling rentals at premium prices.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 12:02:45 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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In order for a service like Valve to be something I'd get behind,
"Valve" is the company; the content distribution platform is called "Steam".

it would need to be something like Netflix. Flat, low-cost subscription for full catalog access. Perhaps with on-demand style rates for new releases.
No illusion of actually buying media.  Until such time that it changes to such a model it's just a service in the guise of a store, selling rentals at premium prices.
I've never seen a rental with indefinite duration before...
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
In order for a service like Valve to be something I'd get behind,
"Valve" is the company; the content distribution platform is called "Steam".

it would need to be something like Netflix. Flat, low-cost subscription for full catalog access. Perhaps with on-demand style rates for new releases.
No illusion of actually buying media.  Until such time that it changes to such a model it's just a service in the guise of a store, selling rentals at premium prices.
I've never seen a rental with indefinite duration before...

Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O

Welcome to my ignore list.



 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O

Welcome to my ignore list.

Why?  Hilarious as the comment was, he has a point - not all goods can be re-used.  Agree with their use or not, virtually all software is subject to EULAs that expressly prohibit re-sale or gifting of used software.  While there may not have been any technical barriers to resale or gifting of pre-DRM titles, there were [widely ignored] legal barriers.
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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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The analogy with food wasn't chosen at random; you can purchase, trade, and sell games on Steam as much as you want... but as soon as you consume the product (activate it on your account), it is no longer a tradeable commodity.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Yes and I've never "OWNED" a product that I couldn't re-sell or give away once I'd used it.
Really? You re-sell food after you've used it? :O

Welcome to my ignore list.

So basically, your response to his point is "lalalalalala I can't hear you!"  Truly the pinnacle of mature and reasoned argument.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 07:51:03 pm by Aesaar »

 
Why?  Hilarious as the comment was, he has a point - not all goods can be re-used.

Because flippant comments which are wantonly incompetent are simply disrespectful in this discussion. As a result he's earned the honour of not worth listening to.

Wanton incompetence coming from understanding what I'm saying, and yet choosing to ignore that understanding in the reply.

So basically, your response to his point is "lalalalalala I can't hear you!"  Truly the pinnacle of mature and reasoned argument.

You can keep him company.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 08:23:48 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Zacam

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What the ... knock it off with the barbs here folks. Akalabeth, take a break and a breather or you can be given one.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Because flippant comments which are wantonly incompetent are simply disrespectful in this discussion.

I have bad news.

He had a level of reasoning beyond your own "THIS MAKES ME ANGRY", making your commentary appear more applicable to yourself than him.

The analogy with food wasn't chosen at random; you can purchase, trade, and sell games on Steam as much as you want... but as soon as you consume the product (activate it on your account), it is no longer a tradeable commodity.
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@Zacam - Thanks for the suggestion, it was an enjoyable break.


@All Else - I compare Steam games to video game rentals and am criticized because Rentals aren't "indefinite" therefore the comparison is invalid.

A second later you're comparing Steam games to a carton of milk.



I believe that qualifies as arguing in bad faith but I may be mistaken.  Either way it's a double standard.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:30:58 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Dragon

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Nope. It's simply a more accurate comparison. :) Rentals are, pretty much by definition, finite. Steam doesn't really follow this model. On the other hand, both food and Steam keys are consumables. You can trade this stuff, or consume it yourself, making it unavailable for trading. Now, the question is, is that acceptable for games to be treated as consumables, but you'll notice that it isn't new - Steam is simply enforcing EULAs which were there for years, mostly ignored. Let's put it that way. For years, you were going to school through a private property, as a shortcut. Now, are you going to complain when someone puts up a fence around the property? You never had the right to go through there, and you have no right to complain that someone actually started enforcing the rules. Same with games. Check out any old game (besides FS2, which had a rather unique EULA) and see that there probably is an entry that would, legally, prevent you from selling off this game after you're done with it. You can do it illegally, but you certainly have no right to do this.

Now, you definitely can complain about practices by the game manufacturers who put such points in EULAs, but you'd have to recognize it's not a problem with Steam, but with whoever writes EULAs. Take the complaints where they belong. While Steam is set up to enforce that particular point, I imagine if at some point it became illegal to prevent re-sale of games that way, it could be changed accordingly (it's constantly updated, anyway). Still, I doubt Valve, or any other publisher for that matter, would remove those points from EULA without a government decree.

 
Nope. It's simply a more accurate comparison. :) Rentals are, pretty much by definition, finite. Steam doesn't really follow this model. On the other hand, both food and Steam keys are consumables.

So you're trying to argue that perishable goods aren't finite?

Riiiiight.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 10:49:01 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline deathfun

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So you're trying to argue that perishable goods aren't finite?

Riiiiight.

Wat


Anyone actually get Descent on Steam here yet?
"No"

 

Offline Scotty

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Nope. It's simply a more accurate comparison. :) Rentals are, pretty much by definition, finite. Steam doesn't really follow this model. On the other hand, both food and Steam keys are consumables.

So you're trying to argue that perishable goods aren't finite?

Riiiiight.

I'm going to step in and say, right now, that everyone needs to drop this particular thread of discussion before it results in more warnings.

 

Offline Hobbie

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And now to provoke even MORE heinous discussion!

http://store.steampowered.com/news/12461/
In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed.

 

Offline Dragon

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See previous page :) :
More on-topic, Descent II has now been added...though they're charging $10 with no current discount.  That same price will get you both games on GOG.
Old news is old.

 

Offline Aesaar

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So basically, your response to his point is "lalalalalala I can't hear you!"  Truly the pinnacle of mature and reasoned argument.
You can keep him company.
Oh no, I'm terribly hurt.  Whatever shall I do?

Zacam, Scotty: I just couldn't leave it at that.  I'm sorry. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:50:52 pm by Aesaar »