[Megawolf492]

This Lucifer fleet which has been around long enough to destroy the Ancients and probably other civilizations before it was apparently splintered off from the main (FS2) Shivan fleet just before beams/flaks became standard. The Shivans being stagnant in technology and new Shivan tech is simply stuff we haven't seen makes it all the more believable as it would otherwise imply that the Shivans have a really weird technological progression rate......

But that's what I'm saying (I think). Sometime around the destruction of the Ancients, the Lucifer fleet became separated from the Sathanas fleet. Maybe the Ancients let the Shivans in via the Knossos and then later deactivated it, but it was too late. The Sathanas fleet had access to some R&D the Lucifer fleet didn't. The Sathanas fleet created new ships and retired old ones. They could have improved on the prototype beam cannons that were on the Lucifer and made it so a ship didn't have to have five reactors to mount them. Maybe they improved on the Lucifer and created the Sathanas. A lot of this is speculation of course, but it fits what we have without adding beams to FS1.

[InsaneBaron]

The Shivans have apparently been around for milleniums. For the technology gap between the two fleet to be ~20-40 GTVA years (based on
On this note though, I'd be curious to play some campaigns that attempt to rectify these discrepancies. Any suggestions?

Blue Planet goes into detail on it. Ancient-Shivan War touches on the matter. Derelict at least brings it up.

One theory I find interesting: The Shivans deliberately avoid using technology that's too far superior to their opponents... because they don't want their opponents copying the technology. Just over the course of the first war, the Terrans and Vasudans stole the shield tech and used Shivan technology to improve their own weapons designs. GTI, with even more access to Shivan material, was able to build their own knock-off of the Lucifer. Over several years they even figured out how to build their own beams (something I'm sure the Shivans didn't want to happen.) Perhaps Shivan fleets deliberately limit themselves to technology that's only slightly better than the species they're attacking (compensating with their sheer numbers). A Sathanas isn't that much better than a Colossus, but 80+ of them is a curbstomp.

[Lt. Spanks]

One theory I find interesting: The Shivans deliberately avoid using technology that's too far superior to their opponents... because they don't want their opponents copying the technology. Just over the course of the first war, the Terrans and Vasudans stole the shield tech and used Shivan technology to improve their own weapons designs. GTI, with even more access to Shivan material, was able to build their own knock-off of the Lucifer. Over several years they even figured out how to build their own beams (something I'm sure the Shivans didn't want to happen.) Perhaps Shivan fleets deliberately limit themselves to technology that's only slightly better than the species they're attacking (compensating with their sheer numbers). A Sathanas isn't that much better than a Colossus, but 80+ of them is a curbstomp.

I don't agree...
I would expect that if you went to fight a war, you would use the most recent tech you could get your hands on.
If the Shivans had better tech than those insanely OP beams the Sathanas had during the second incursion, they should have and would have used it because the Terrans would have been obliterated, there would have been no time to mount a defense line and blow up the node, as the Terran quick response defense set up by the Aquitaine would have melted away.

I don't think that the Shivans would hold back tech just so we don't copy them.

[Phantom Hoover]

Have you played the most recent release of Blue Planet? Because it proposes a very interesting explanation of why the Shivans might avoid deploying their most potent weapons at all times.

[Snarks]

But that's what I'm saying (I think). Sometime around the destruction of the Ancients, the Lucifer fleet became separated from the Sathanas fleet. Maybe the Ancients let the Shivans in via the Knossos and then later deactivated it, but it was too late. The Sathanas fleet had access to some R&D the Lucifer fleet didn't. The Sathanas fleet created new ships and retired old ones. They could have improved on the prototype beam cannons that were on the Lucifer and made it so a ship didn't have to have five reactors to mount them. Maybe they improved on the Lucifer and created the Sathanas. A lot of this is speculation of course, but it fits what we have without adding beams to FS1.

But that's the thing. By that logic, the Shivans were using something like kinetic projectiles against the Ancient. And isn't it odd at all that the Shivans would have the same path of technological development despite having no contact? The Shivans have been around for much longer time than the 20 or so years between the two Shivan fleets. Why didn't they develop all those technologies in the other vast spans of time they had?

Have you played the most recent release of Blue Planet? Because it proposes a very interesting explanation of why the Shivans might avoid deploying their most potent weapons at all times.

I've played through AoA, but I'm waiting for voice acting on WiH.

[Phantom Hoover]

I'll avoid explaining it for spoiler reasons, then.

[Megawolf492]

The Shivans have been around for much longer time than the 20 or so years between the two Shivan fleets. Why didn't they develop all those technologies in the other vast spans of time they had?

I am saying that. In the ~8000 years between the Ancient/Shivan War and the Second Shivan Incursion, the Sathanas fleet had time to develop new stuff, like non-Lucifer beams, flaks, new ships, etc. However, since I am postulating that the Lucifer fleet was cut off around the time of the A/S War, they didn't have access to that new technology. The Lucifer fleet might have developed new stuff (like the Lucifer's shields), but at a much slower pace because of fleet size, little/no "research ships", infrastructure, etc.

Also, we have no idea how old the Shivans really are. For all we know, the Shivans were unleashed/evolved/whatever just before their contact with the Ancients. The Shivans could be on their second or third "cycle" of destruction instead of their 100th. They could have taken the reigns of "Great Destroyers" from another species, the first they destroyed. If this is true, that would explain how the Shivans haven't already developed everything yet. Or they could just be less intelligent then us in R&D and destroy their enemies with pure numbers (unlikely).

[karajorma]

Here's a weird one worth thinking about.

Given the speed with which the GTVA developed shields and weapons based on the Shivans, maybe the same thing the other way round happened with the Shivans. We don't know exactly how long the NTF were in the nebula before the Trinity was discovered there or if the Trinity was the ship that went through on the initial sortie through the gate. So for all we know, the Shivans could have captured an NTF ship and retro-engineered flak and capship beam weapons. Hell, the capture of an NTF ship might have been what convinced Bosch that he needed ETAK.

Hell, it might be what convinced him that he needed the NTF in the first place (giving the Shivans 18 months to retrofit their fleet).

[Megawolf492]

We don't know exactly how long the NTF were in the nebula before the Trinity was discovered there or if the Trinity was the ship that went through on the initial sortie through the gate.

Actually, we do. In "Mystery of the Trinity", command says that the Trinity defected to the NTF less than a week before (I forget the number but it was very low). And we know later on in the campaign that the Trinity was the one to activate and enter the Knossos. So unless the Shivans can retrofit their entire fleet in a week, this seems unlikely.

[karajorma]

Unless of course the Trinity reactivated the portal.

I'm not saying this is the likely explanation, but consider this. We assume Bosch probably knew about the portal and what it was for before the NTF revolution. It would seem pretty stupid to kick off the revolution so that he could ally with the Shivans if he had no way to find them. So suppose Bosch finds the portal powered down but in such a way it can easily be activated. Ships are sent through but the gate closes and this time it locks, leaving whatever ship he sent through stuck on the other side.

Why would it lock? Well off the top of my head, suppose the ancients decided that they might want to send a ship through to see if the Shivans were gone, they might set the gate to work from their side but lock if something came through the other way. Bosch's forces, finish their reccy and try to go through only to find they've now locked the gate on both sides. Bosch has no choice but to try to find the ancient artifacts in Deneb that will unlock the gate again.


Like I said, weird theory worth considering rather than what I think actually happened.

[QuantumDelta]

Ironically all I can ever think of when contemplating the plot of FS2 is some american military. "WE'RE TEH GREATEST, WE'RE TEH BIGGEST, WE'RE TEH WIN, OUR COUNTRY IS GOD-BLESSED - HOLY **** WHAT JUST HAPPEN?"
That's pretty much the entire game.

FS2 really really irks me on a game play level too, and, while admittedly, it's a fredding problem 99% of the time, in FS1 if you were good enough to break the mission, with the exception of the plot explained lucifer you could kill anything, given enough time.
FS2 you can break the mission by being too good, kill everything except the big ships which you can disable, disarm, make blind, deaf, and dumb, but will sit there like a boulder - except even the boulders blow up when you shoot them, doesn't matter hot many tones of explosive you put into it - it'll stay there unless you happen to have something with a "magic massive damage tag." Just retarded.

[Phantom Hoover]

it's almost like it makes no sense to be able to destroy a warship the size of a small island with small arms! personally i think it's great that fs2 values harmony between gameplay and narrative more than satisfying your power fantasies

[Luis Dias]

I would definitely not use the word "retarded" there to describe that situation.

[jr2]

it's almost like it makes no sense to be able to destroy a warship the size of a small island with small arms! personally i think it's great that fs2 values harmony between gameplay and narrative more than satisfying your power fantasies

Right, but you fail to mention your small arms fire is nuclear-tipped...    It would still take a while to down the island, and I wouldn't expect you to be able to super-crit the island's reactors, except 0.01% chance hit or failure in failsafe reactor shutdown system.

[Mongoose]

I would definitely not use the word "retarded" there to describe that situation.

Or any situation really.  Just as a general friendly request, can we maybe try to avoid using that term pejoratively?

[General Battuta]

I am with you and will back you up in any argument on the topic.

[An4ximandros]

Specially when you can use fantastic words like moronic & its poecilonyms.