[General Battuta]

I also find it staggeringly ridiculous a narrative of having the Shivans being scared of the GTVA and "folding" the hand, when all the tactical signs point to the simple fact that these species simply have no hand against them. It would also paint them as absolute cowards, I mean come on.

The very point of having the Shivans' objective be towards the Capella star and not against the Terrans / Vasudans is made precisely to avoid the contradiction of having an unbeatable species being "beaten" by the GTVA at the end of the game, or alternatively, have the GTVA being absolutely demolished by them (not good for the gamer morale... a contradiction that Mass Effect failed to solve I'd say).

Hm - as you go on to say in the rest of your post I think this is almost a greater defeat: not only does 'nature' turn out to be uncontrollably dangerous, but it doesn't even do us the courtesy of obeying the malevolence we've attributed to it. The GTVA assumes that if the Shivans get through they will just start vaporizing planets, but when the Shivans do get through, they don't even jack us up in the way we understood they would.

We're defeated so completely that even our understanding of defeat gets overthrown.

The idea that the Shivans believe we have a lot of military power so they engineer Capella as a roadblock is one of the oldest ones around - it appeared in that old Shivan Manifesto chestnut. I don't think it's ever really been satisfying. Nor is the TNG Season 8 idea that the Shivans are attracted to damage caused by subspace travel.

[Flipside]

Well, it's difficult to find terminology that isn't based in our own understanding of the world, so the analogies we use have to be limited to that scope, I'm not sure 'attracted' is really the right word, though. For all we know the Shivans are created in some way by that 'damage'.

The problem is, because Freespace is at heart a computer game, it's based partly on whether you consider the fact the Shivans behave like a 'Computer Game' alien as part of the canon or not. In order for the game to function, the Shivans have to appear at a specific rate, always have just enough firepower to push things up to the next level, always have something that is just that bit more than what you threw at them. People who consider that purely as part of the game mechanic would probably consider Shivans in a slightly different light to those who consider it part of their specific behavior.

[General Battuta]

There are very well-developed Shivan theories out there right now that account for all the 'gamey' Shivan behavior, explain the irregularities between the FS1 and FS2 Shivan response profile and technological development, break out of the anthropomorphic cognition box, and fit all of that into the clues that V dropped about where they wanted to go with the Shivans.

Well, there's one, at least! And we're very proud of it.

[mjn.mixael]

So... You're basically saying that BP has the most likely story, that takes everything into account and without actually using the wording, you are suggesting that BP's theory is best. Perhaps let Darius or Axem do the BP publicity because it might make me want to hate it less due to arrogance... 

Don't get me wrong. I have enjoyed what I've played of BP. I just think its awefully pompous to pop into a thread full of people's ideas and imaginings of their favorite space Sim and suggest that your mod is the only one that really got it right. That none of the others really matter. It's that interview thread all over again.

[Luis Dias]

Well, I'd say that in this particular we can have a reasonable debate or difference, slightly divergent variations following from that seeming "defeat". I am cautious about that particular word for it is such a human one... but still even accepting it, I thnk all readings are only retroactively true, that is, only by assessing what happens next in this world can we classify what happens in FS2. This is the place of prophets or (amazing) politicians, those who are able to create events as narratives. This is what Bosch did in his own style, but there could be other readings far less bloody and far more positive.

We could read the events of FS2 as part of the human species' awakening to the harsh reality of its temporal condition in the universe (just as a person reaching his middle age grasping more and more his own mortality for what it is), we could dissect this as a positive trait or a negative one, I mean, everything eventually dies, it's how we deal with this truth that can be either a defeat or a victory. It could be written like the movie "Melancholia". It could be written both ways. We could read them as just a very harsh lesson, one which mankind could eventually adapt to and overcome some eons later. It could be written in "Childhood's End" style, that is, mankind is over but it births something of value to the rest of the universe. It could be written as "the cutesy species known as mankind and vasudankind, desperate for a solution for the shivan problem, end up creating a monster even greater, worse than anything created before", which would be (I guess), the "Mass Effect idea" but done right.

Everything is open in FS2 and I appreciate it a lot. Despite the harsh words I used against Lorric's rendering of the "shivans fold" idea, I agree that it could eventually work if the writing was extremely solid. It's the kind of idea so ridiculous that it could crash the entire story if done less than perfect.

So... You're basically saying that BP has the most likely story, that takes everything into account and without actually using the wording, you are suggesting that BP's theory is best. Perhaps let Darius or Axem do the BP publicity because it might make me want to hate it less due to arrogance... 

Don't get me wrong. I have enjoyed what I've played of BP. I just think its awefully pompous to pop into a thread full of people's ideas and imaginings of their favorite space Sim and suggest that your mod is the only one that really got it right. That none of the others really matter. It's that interview thread all over again.

I read it in two ways, both as just corny HEY LOOK AT ME IM AWESOME typical Battuta's style, that is, not to be taken seriously at all, and also as being just truthful. I mean, yes, we have quite a lot of post capella mods, but which ones have really dealt with this question at all? And in all of those, which ones have garnered any slight interesting theoretical development of what the Shivans are, what they should be, what is this all about and so on? The only mod that gave me pause before BP was "Sync", but its commentary was minimal.

[General Battuta]

So... You're basically saying that BP has the most likely story, that takes everything into account and without actually using the wording, you are suggesting that BP's theory is best. Perhaps let Darius or Axem do the BP publicity because it might make me want to hate it less due to arrogance... 

Don't get me wrong. I have enjoyed what I've played of BP. I just think its awefully pompous to pop into a thread full of people's ideas and imaginings of their favorite space Sim and suggest that your mod is the only one that really got it right. That none of the others really matter. It's that interview thread all over again.

No, I'm saying just the opposite (what I always say): it's possible to have good theories that do great creative work with the Shivans without diminishing them or throwing up your hands and saying 'too many inconsistencies.' The fact that it's been done at least once shows it can be done a lot.

I've always been super vocal about the value of creative heterodoxy and multiple strong approaches. That's why BP has always advertised for other campaigns and plugged their good work.

I am admittedly not aware of any other mods that have presented a comprehensive Shivan theory in released content, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of amazing approaches waiting to be taken.

My suggestion is not 'only BP gets it right': rather it is 'there are a lot of interesting ways to answer these open questions, so we shouldn't treat them as unanswerable.'

What interview thread are you referring to?

[mjn.mixael]

There are very well-developed Shivan theories out there right now that account for all the 'gamey' Shivan behavior, explain the irregularities between the FS1 and FS2 Shivan response profile and technological development, break out of the anthropomorphic cognition box, and fit all of that into the clues that V dropped about where they wanted to go with the Shivans.

Well, there's one, at least! And we're very proud of it.

TLDR

There is one Shivan theory that is as infallible as Shivan theories can be, and it's the one from my mod. Not only that, but it fits into the arbitrary condition I setup, the anthropomorphic box.

Whether you meant it that way or not.. that's the way it came off to me.

[General Battuta]

I'm really sorry it came off that way. I hoped that 'theories' and 'at least one' would make it clear that I thought there were room for lots. I've always been very, very vocal about my support for narrative heterodoxy, and here I was trying to point out that there are more than zero satisfying theories, not exactly one.

I admire your work and your respect means something to me. I am happy to take this to PMs if you'd like.

[General Battuta]

For the curious, here is V's loose theory:

We had a sense that the Shivan fleet in FS1 was a scouting party'searching for stars suitable for blowing up and cleansing the space of biological life. The Shivan fleet in FS2 then came in to collapse the stars and open up the new nodes to Shivantown. Now what come through those nodes is anyone's guess'perhaps factories that churned out new ships to continue the cycle. I felt that the Shivans were very, very old and had been at this for millions of years perhaps. Maybe they outlived their original purpose and were living out these endless loops of destruction and creation long after their creators had died off. Or maybe the master race was still alive and aware of what they had unleashed.
 

[Luis Dias]

There is one Shivan theory that is as infallible as Shivan theories can be, and it's the one from my mod. Not only that, but it fits into the arbitrary condition I setup, the anthropomorphic box.

Well I am extremely curious to learn it, and I appreciate the fact that BtA doesn't hide from trying to untangle these questions, very courageous in itself, but should you expect anyone else to have known there was this amazing theory being cooked in a hidden kitchen of a few dedicated competent modders?

[General Battuta]

No he's saying I said that.

[Luis Dias]

Christ I'm such an idiot.

[mjn.mixael]

I have zero theories of my own. BtA barely gives the Shivans a passing mention.

[JCDNWarrior]

I think the fun with the Shivans is that 'All rational explanations are just as valid'. With clever writing perhaps all explanations and theories could co-exist. Mold the Shivans to your own desires, if you want to have a mod where you can fight Shivans after FS2, I'm sure there's a lot of ways around it without needing to go 'this is the only and ultimate truth, they are X and Y'.

Since the Shivans are fun to build missions around, a target you can destroy without feeling as guilty as killing fellow humans (and vasudans), I hope people won't limit themselves when making, or playing, these mods, to a singular explanation or theory to the point it interferes with their enjoyment of the mods in question.

I love the design on the Lucifer as I've always done, from the low-poly FS1 days to today - It remains such an elusive and intimidating foe, with some proper upgunned turrets on it I think it'll remain an interesting ship to fight, as well. It's also interesting how far theories have come though, it might just as well eclipse V's original ideas, although perhaps in the making of an unknowable enemy, it's best for writers to keep them such a blank slate to even themselves.

[General Battuta]

I firmly don't believe that we need to play Lost with the Shivans to keep their mystique and effect.

[qwadtep]

The idea that the Shivans believe we have a lot of military power so they engineer Capella as a roadblock is one of the oldest ones around - it appeared in that old Shivan Manifesto chestnut. I don't think it's ever really been satisfying. Nor is the TNG Season 8 idea that the Shivans are attracted to damage caused by subspace travel.

Capella was absolutely a reaction to GTVA military power. It's a subtle trend in the game; when the GTVA beats Shivan cruisers with corvettes, the Shivans send a destroyer; when the GTVA beats the Shivan destroyer with its own destroyers, the Shivans send a juggernaut; when the GTVA beats the juggernaut with its own juggernaut, the Shivans send a fleet of juggernauts. It's all reactionary, all escalation. The horror lies in realizing that it really is turtles all the way down.

[JCDNWarrior]

I firmly don't believe that we need to play Lost with the Shivans to keep their mystique and effect.

I've never watched Lost and don't mean to suggest that. What I meant was that modders and writers shouldn't limit themselves to one interpretation if it takes away from gameplay. Sometimes it's just fun to have the Shivans invade again for some excuse if it means having a fun battle. Even if the Shivans are known to go at things differently, one could argue that it's part of a different anima or collective or such.

Just as long as not the same trap occurs that happened with the Reapers in ME3, as you've also brought up earlier.

For the record, I'm extremely curious and look forward to how BP continues to handle the Shivans, I absolutely enjoy the direction that they have been taken in.

I just hope we get to see some more battles against the Shivans in other mods just because I feel they are fun adversaries to fight.
When they unleash hundreds of fighters one doesn't have to take into account their logistics or how much investment it took, their backstories and relations. When taking out destroyers there are no worries about sinking ten thousand personnel most of which are just doing their job, that sort of thing.

[Luis Dias]

The idea that the Shivans believe we have a lot of military power so they engineer Capella as a roadblock is one of the oldest ones around - it appeared in that old Shivan Manifesto chestnut. I don't think it's ever really been satisfying. Nor is the TNG Season 8 idea that the Shivans are attracted to damage caused by subspace travel.

Capella was absolutely a reaction to GTVA military power. It's a subtle trend in the game; when the GTVA beats Shivan cruisers with corvettes, the Shivans send a destroyer; when the GTVA beats the Shivan destroyer with its own destroyers, the Shivans send a juggernaut; when the GTVA beats the juggernaut with its own juggernaut, the Shivans send a fleet of juggernauts. It's all reactionary, all escalation. The horror lies in realizing that it really is turtles all the way down.

You shouldn't confuse the escalation you feel as a GTVA pilot with an actual tactical escalation on the part of the Shivans. They are both very different things. The idea that Shivans fold the hand after one Sathanas is busted is incongruent with the size of their fleet and the character that Shivans display throughout FS1 and FS2, both carefree and loose about their individual losses. To say this is "absolutely" what happened sounds extremely wrong to me.

One can (and probably should) read the Sivan invasion in FS2 with the sole purpose of blowing Cappella up, all the while the GTVA thinking they are on against humans and vasudans, that they are escalating, etc. I even find it a  numerological small nice detail the fact that there are 81 sathanases total, 80 of them actually reaching Cappella. One could imagine the Shivans work in base nine, instead of ten. Even the interview Batts refers to says this explicitly.

[Mav]

You shouldn't confuse the escalation you feel as a GTVA pilot with an actual tactical escalation on the part of the Shivans. They are both very different things. The idea that Shivans fold the hand after one Sathanas is busted is incongruent with the size of their fleet and the character that Shivans display throughout FS1 and FS2, both carefree and loose about their individual losses. To say this is "absolutely" what happened sounds extremely wrong to me.

One can (and probably should) read the Sivan invasion in FS2 with the sole purpose of blowing Cappella up, all the while the GTVA thinking they are on against humans and vasudans, that they are escalating, etc.

Exactly .

... leaving open the question as to WHY they blew up Capella - there's the speculation of Adm. Petrarch, of course, but that shouldn't stop one from thinking of other (non-GTVA-related) reasons... 

[Lorric]

The thing about blowing up Capella being the Shivans' sole goal is why would they need the GTVA to come into their house to do it? If they wanted it blown up it would have been blown up long before.