Author Topic: Let's talk, HLP!  (Read 30320 times)

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Offline karajorma

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There was actually a lot of interest in Diaspora multiplayer when the game was release. The problem was the code wasn't up to it.

I can't imagine there won't be people who want to play FotG online either.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline chief1983

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It was the main reason I rebooted the project :p
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline jr2

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Multi is not going to happen. FSO is a single-player project now. We don't have the resources to fix it or the playerbase to make it worthwhile.

I thought karajorma had it on the backburner?
Multi has been "on the backburner" for, like, a decade (if not longer). Without a coder that knows netcode, someone would have to basically learn how it works from scratch to be able to perform even marginal improvements, and nobody has that kind of time for something that our active playerbase does not use (of course, improved netcode would increase our potential playerbase significantly... but the people who currently use FSO obviously don't use it for multiplayer).

...and the ultimate goal of this topic was to increase our playerbase, not just make things better for the current playerbase (although it is also that).  However, still no netcode guru, so moot point.

Are people just conceding that multiplayer is completely dead?  That's sad.  I now have four VPS servers running, currently still for testing, but which could be running full time release standalones of any combination of mods.  That's up to 48 multiplayer slots running simultaneously without anyone having to forward ports.  Probably the best workaround we have for the confusing NAT setup until someone figures out punch-thru.  Also jg18 plans on running a series of experiments on the netcode to see if we can find some gains, and has even had users volunteering to help him out yet.  So there is still some interest, and sometimes a small, but dedicated grass roots team is all you need to make things happen.  I have personally been trying to ensure the WebUI-based standalones remain stable for a couple years now I think, because I think that a few dedicated hosting machines are our best bet for any multiplayer viability in the near term.  I'm really happy with how stable they're running now and think that I could set up a couple retail, a MediaVPs, and maybe another mod once 3.8 is released.

I'm sure it's not dead, it's just effectively dead until someone uses a defibrillator on it.  The heart's doing all sorts of funny motions, but the blood isn't going anywhere.  Unfortunately.

 

Offline Spoon

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It's also rather premature. Multi isn't very healthy but the quickest way to actually kill it is to discourage the coders who want to work on it.
"Isn't very healthy" Oh come on. It's deader than dead, and has been for a long long time. Where are these delusions coming from?
I'd rather that coding time and effort be spend on other parts of SCP, things that are not a waste of time.
There is simply no playerbase left.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline JSRNerdo

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@^:

There was actually a lot of interest in Diaspora multiplayer when the game was release. The problem was the code wasn't up to it.

I can't imagine there won't be people who want to play FotG online either.

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Offline karajorma

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Apart from anything else, a major reason to get multiplayer up and running again (even if it was dead) is that multiplayer is much better than single at getting people to stick around.

Players of the SP game tend to come, play the game and then leave. But if you can get people to play a MP game regularly they'll stick around for years.

And there's no doubt in my mind that FotG or Diaspora R2 could build up their own MP communities if the game is working well enough to do so.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline chief1983

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Or even TBP 3.5.  Especially since this time, they could have SquadWar v2 behind them.
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"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Spoon

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I understand I am saying unpopular things that you guys would rather not hear and thus do the old "lalala not true at all" fingers in your ears thing that you have all become so adapt at doing, whenever I point out the reality of HLP/Freespace/MP being dead or dying. But holy **** I thought we were finally past that stage.
Multiplayer is never ever going to get revived. The playerbase will never get large enough for any investment in the code to be worth it. There are far more developed and better multiplayer only games on steam, that completely fail at even keeping a bare minimum sustainable player base going. Like say, Interplanetary, invisigun heroes etc. And these are games that all benefit from being on steam and have network code that doesn't suck and have a matchmaking system of sorts.
I don't mean to rag on Diaspora, but this idea that it would have had a healthy and active multiplayer community, if it just had netcode thats not straight out of 1999 is just a fantasy.

And each time someone brings up the fabled and legendary 'SquadWar v2' up as if that would be the savior of it all. Yeah okay, I've been seeing these posts for yeeeaaars now. Sorry if I am being a bit skeptical here, but I sooner expect Starcitizen release with all of its features than FS2 MP. Because it's nothing but empty words for a empty playerbase for years now.

A waste of coding time.

But hey, feel free to proof me wrong.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline chief1983

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Except the port of Squadwar from the old Coldfusion code to PHP on the FS2NetD server is already done.  It could be completely usable right now, if multiplayer were considered playable.  The only feature missing is the direct integration with FSO and that is nearly complete.  I mean, that's as much as X-wing vs TIE Fighter has and all it's taking is a GOG release to get people playing it on Game Ranger again.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that we are talking about not one, not even two, but three total conversions with entirely different bases of interest, that could be released in the near future.  Diaspora also suffered from a limited ship set in its initial launch.  So it wasn't just the netcode, but it was a good chunk of it.  TBP and FotG have much more options for campaign and mission designers, and FotG is part of a franchise with current real world interest.  Getting multiplayer on that, making a viable replacement for the old Totally Games series, and giving players another reason to pick up TBP, are all worthwhile endeavors in my opinion.  All of which would benefit from any kind of functional multiplayer system.  I don't even mind throwing money at standalones to make it easier to host games.  I mean I can almost always find a discounted one for about $1 a month on lowendbox.com.  So you're right, I don't want to hear what you're saying, because while some of it is based on truth, the conclusions being drawn from it just aren't correct.

This is also a volunteer project, so devs are free to work on whatever things interest them, to a point.  You can persuade and discourage all you want, but your tools of persuasion could use some work if your end goal is to prevent any further effort ever being spent on multiplayer.
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"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Spoon

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Its your time and effort, you do whatever you feel like spending your time on. If you think spending your time on dead MP is a worthwhile endeavor, please, by all means. Don't let grumpy me discourage you.
I think you are all being completely delusional about this though. The reality is that MP has been dead for years now and improving netcode at this point is going to do absolutely nothing to get a healthy playerbase in. It's 2017, and the vast majority of players nowadays is not going to want to come to IRC to try and find 2-3 other people in different time zones to play a multiplayer game with. My conclusions are very correct though. I've got the past several years as evidence to back me up about everything I've been saying. We can barely get people to play hot new singleplayer releases or to upvote a imgur post. All of this work you are doing or plan on doing is going to be for a nonexisting amount of players.

It just boggles my mind that you guys are still clinging to this fantasy. Always repeating the same nonsense that MP's revival is juuuust around the corner! The revival of the glory squadwars days is at hand guys! Any moment now! I liked how this thread was grounded in the reality of the present for a while, but it seems we're back at choosing to ignore it instead again.

But hey good luck! I'll step out of this thread now.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline karajorma

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Quarter of a million Diaspora downloads and we're supposed to believe that only 10 or 20 of them wanted to play multiplayer?

If only 1% had stuck around to play multi that would be a couple of thousand extra players.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 11:17:21 am by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
If you look at some really dead MP games on steam... 1% is really optimistic.

Look at say, Strike vector. It was an FPS-y 6 DOF space combat MP game from 2014. According to steamspy it had 204 thousand owners. That means 204 thousand people bought it using money.

As of now it gets 814 players per 2 weeks, which is under 0.5% of the total playerbase. Its peak playerbase for the last 30 days was 6(six).
And that game has pretty good stable multiplayer and it was some 12$ compared to Diaspora's low low price of FREE.
Looking at how much better MP games died I'd say that even 20 or 30 dedicated players for Diaspora would be quite an achievement.

And that's just a random game from my library, you don't have to look far to see games with a quarter million owners that are completely dead.

So I really wouldn't look to multi as this thing that will bring in "a thousand players" or anything. If it works it will probably be nice for those of us already here and might be a fun thing to do between singleplayer releases. I'm all for trying to improve the multi netcode but I think you guys need to be a bit more realistic about how much it would actually do for the FSO playerbase.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 12:53:26 pm by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline General Battuta

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If this game had smooth netcode instead of "shoot thirty feet in front of the target" I think I'd be down for co-op campaigns and puzzle missions, it'd be neat.

 

Offline chief1983

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It's not so much about increasing it by itself as giving people a reason to stick around longer.  And we do have a Discord server now too, which is much more game oriented I believe, especially with its voice channels, etc.  I know of numerous players who would go to great lengths to attempt to help revive the multi community, if we could make it more usable.  Strike Vector is probably a bad example, many games come and go without leaving much of an imprint on your psyche.  People still play Quake 1, Descent, etc.  People like to be able to fire up old games on new machines at retro-gaming LAN parties, etc.  Being a game with a nostalgic feeling but also being able to provide fresh content is something that FSO is in a unique position to do with our community's talent pool.  I can see not only the TC releases but also Knossos's ability to make the installation process even more error prone allowing us to reach a larger user base than we could previously.  So forgive me for being optimistic with the belief that every time we have a spotlight shone on the community, that a certain percentage of those seeing us for the first time might be interested in the multiplayer component.
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"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 
Quake sold some 1.1 million copies.
Descent sold some ~200k copies, really hard to find precise numbers for Descent.

Freespace 2 sold less than 30k copies.

The "nostalgia market" for Freespace is simply much smaller than it is for Quake or Descent or DooM or Half Life.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom here but I think a thousand people for singleplayer and maybe 50-60 playing multiplayer at least once a week is an optimistic expectation. A thousand players staying around for multi is just completely unrealistic.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 01:33:28 pm by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 
The idea that competitive multiplayer could ever kick off again is an absolute joke. I don't think Elite's arena mode manages 30 regular players and it's easily the most successful space game right now.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Squad war was epic over fifteen years ago. I've been in 12 player brawls and 12 is plenty.
Also rebel intercept.

I miss rebel intercept.
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Offline jr2

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Its your time and effort, you do whatever you feel like spending your time on. If you think spending your time on dead MP is a worthwhile endeavor, please, by all means. Don't let grumpy me discourage you.
I think you are all being completely delusional about this though. The reality is that MP has been dead for years now and improving netcode at this point is going to do absolutely nothing to get a healthy playerbase in. It's 2017, and the vast majority of players nowadays is not going to want to come to IRC to try and find 2-3 other people in different time zones to play a multiplayer game with. My conclusions are very correct though. I've got the past several years as evidence to back me up about everything I've been saying. We can barely get people to play hot new singleplayer releases or to upvote a imgur post. All of this work you are doing or plan on doing is going to be for a nonexisting amount of players.

It just boggles my mind that you guys are still clinging to this fantasy. Always repeating the same nonsense that MP's revival is juuuust around the corner! The revival of the glory squadwars days is at hand guys! Any moment now! I liked how this thread was grounded in the reality of the present for a while, but it seems we're back at choosing to ignore it instead again.

But hey good luck! I'll step out of this thread now.

A lot of that could be rectified with a good lobby, as well as a server browser that allows you to jump right in whenever there's enough people on etc... There was one developed, I can find it I think but it was very old and it would take forever to find.  Might have it in my downloads on my hard disk though.

 
you're just going to ignore everyone who points out that the multiplayer has totally died out for games which are literally orders of magnitude more popular than FSO, then, i guess, and keep pretending that the real cause is the SCP team not spending enough time on your favourite feature of a game that you don't even ****ing play any more
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline jr2

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You seem to be forgetting the reason multi died out: it sucks!

Anyways, I think I found the tool:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=49012.msg994240#msg994240

http://www.anetchat.prv.pl/freespace  <- dead by now, of course.  Used to be handy to keep it open to join up, though (unless that was another tool).