Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****  (Read 17453 times)

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
I went "Ahhhhhhhhhh" when i realised that they were locking up the galactic equivalent of Scorpios ;)
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Also, Dad Saru best Saru.

... cause that's what the character was orignally designed for but never really used for because someone wanted to be cleverer and smarter



... which brings me to my thoughts on Episode 3; It's nice to see that at least someone got the persmission to go ahead after saying "hey, you know all that really subjectivist storytelling we did in Season 1 but never properly resoved because the end of season got really cluttered? Let's put in one or two lines which cap that off really quick."; And then someone had to clutter the rest of episode with at least 3 ticking clocks for the rest of season (one was inevitible with hyperelastic topography afforded by the continued use of the Spore Drive; but more than that is just overkill).
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
The corporate backstory to ALL Star Trek shenanigans is as great of a drama show as Star Trek itself, believe me! Just watch this:


 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
So far, Season 2 is MUCH, MUCH better than Season 1.  Just finished watching ep 4 yesterday.  While I was kinda "meh" about 3 - mostly because the Klingons just remind me of everything I hated in Season 1 - 4 actually had me somewhat excited for where they go next.
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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
The corporate backstory to ALL Star Trek shenanigans is as great of a drama show as Star Trek itself, believe me! Just watch this:

It is, but I do have to question the validity of the claim that Discovery is made under Paramount's license rather than CBS' own licence to Star Trek. This is the line that the guys at Midnight's Edge have been parroting for a while now and it's never been conclusively proven afaik.

I'm no journalist, but a lot of what those guys claim about Discovery and Star Trek as a whole strikes me as tinfoil hat stuff. They have a bad habit of mixing known facts with conjecture and rumour.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
It hasn't been proven afaict (I agree), but there's corporate smoke in here, surely. The fact that Discovery has so many design decisions that align with that "tin foil hat theory", and so many writing decisions that seem to try to connect all these disparate "worlds" together (the insistence on the parallel worlds storylines) seem to point at least with corporate attempts to muddy all these waters and "fuse" the look and feel of star trek between old and new.

Meanwhile, the presence of the old enterprise number 1 and Pike's dismissal of the holographic communications in the Enterprise due to some technobabble difficulties were such dysmal writing that I can only blame more corporate buffoonery with some silly community feedback that wanted it away (there hasn't been any such type of communication in this season so far AFAIR).

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
I'm confused as to how Saru's home planet is off limits, and if so, how he managed to claim asylum....I thought kelpians were just one of those races we never saw. :/
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
I think there is a short episode between seasons that depicted Saru's backstory better, but I haven't seen it yet. AFAIK, the whole species is pre-warp, and basically conditioned as a slave-species to another kind, Saru himself was able to flee the planet (somehow), and then requested for asylum. Then, later, he joined starfleet.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Yeah that's what I need clarification on.   I'll have a Google but thought it would've been on Netflix with he rest of the show :|


Also.......that fungus should consume tilly. ..she is a bad character.
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Offline Ulala

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
It's on Netflix under trailers and more I believe (outside of US).
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Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
It hasn't been proven afaict (I agree), but there's corporate smoke in here, surely. The fact that Discovery has so many design decisions that align with that "tin foil hat theory", and so many writing decisions that seem to try to connect all these disparate "worlds" together (the insistence on the parallel worlds storylines) seem to point at least with corporate attempts to muddy all these waters and "fuse" the look and feel of star trek between old and new.

Nah, I think the theory that the original Discovery production staff wanted to make a show that looks like something produced in 2017 is much more credible.

Quote
Meanwhile, the presence of the old enterprise number 1 and Pike's dismissal of the holographic communications in the Enterprise due to some technobabble difficulties were such dysmal writing that I can only blame more corporate buffoonery with some silly community feedback that wanted it away (there hasn't been any such type of communication in this season so far AFAIR).

Number 1 is cool, hopefully we get to see more of her. As for the communicators, well, I'm just going to blame all the people who were complaining about how "Discovery looks more advanced than TOS, therefore Discovery bad" for that one....
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
It hasn't been proven afaict (I agree), but there's corporate smoke in here, surely. The fact that Discovery has so many design decisions that align with that "tin foil hat theory", and so many writing decisions that seem to try to connect all these disparate "worlds" together (the insistence on the parallel worlds storylines) seem to point at least with corporate attempts to muddy all these waters and "fuse" the look and feel of star trek between old and new.

Nah, I think the theory that the original Discovery production staff wanted to make a show that looks like something produced in 2017 is much more credible.

If you just add the notion that "something produced in 2017" has to take into account the three new star trek movies made, then you're merely aggressively agreeing with me. Think about it.


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Number 1 is cool, hopefully we get to see more of her. As for the communicators, well, I'm just going to blame all the people who were complaining about how "Discovery looks more advanced than TOS, therefore Discovery bad" for that one....

Number 1 is.... what kind of shot was that, from the bottom up? I'm pretty sure feminists hated that shot! And she's so out of place. Like someone was beamed from the 50s to now. I like her character, her personality. But it was weird fanservice "do you remember this" kind of shtick. And yeah, I can also blame the hatedom for the hologram shenanigans, but they were the ones to cave. And did so in the laziest of ways.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
If you just add the notion that "something produced in 2017" has to take into account the three new star trek movies made, then you're merely aggressively agreeing with me. Think about it.

What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that this is, somehow, a result of some complicated IP rights shenanigans. The situation isn't that complicated, really; one production company has the right to make movies and one can make TV shows, given that they're all drawn from the same base material, it would be weird if there wasn't some cross-pollination going on between the various incarnations of Star Trek.

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Number 1 is.... what kind of shot was that, from the bottom up? I'm pretty sure feminists hated that shot! And she's so out of place. Like someone was beamed from the 50s to now.

Well, given that that was Rebecca Romijn's intent with the character....

Quote
I like her character, her personality. But it was weird fanservice "do you remember this" kind of shtick. And yeah, I can also blame the hatedom for the hologram shenanigans, but they were the ones to cave. And did so in the laziest of ways.

What was your opinion of the reveal of the origins of the D7/K'T'inga-class Battlecruiser?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
If you just add the notion that "something produced in 2017" has to take into account the three new star trek movies made, then you're merely aggressively agreeing with me. Think about it.

What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that this is, somehow, a result of some complicated IP rights shenanigans. The situation isn't that complicated, really; one production company has the right to make movies and one can make TV shows, given that they're all drawn from the same base material, it would be weird if there wasn't some cross-pollination going on between the various incarnations of Star Trek.

I can't just simply ignore the enterprise's designer statements like that, nor all the tiny bits of information scattered throughout. Regardless, I see all of that as a kind of stupid black box that can contain ip shenanigans but also corporate meddling and design by comittee, you figure out the percentages, I'm not particularly interested in those kinds of mathematics.

What I found most interesting from that video was actually the revelation that the new movies *didn't* have any version of actual canon star trek embedded in its own storyline, that it was either the new timeline or their own particular version of canon dubbed "Prime line", which was also required to be at least 25% different from the original.

If there's an argument against intellectual property in artistic licenses, these kinds of stupid shenanigans might just add to the list of case studies. The kinds of loops that real artists and writers have to deal with when they only want to tell interesting stories is ridiculous.

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What was your opinion of the reveal of the origins of the D7/K'T'inga-class Battlecruiser?

tbf, I don't recall that moment.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Luis, this whole IP thing fails one simple test: Namely, that "Paramount" is nowhere in the credits to Discovery. Who benefits from such a deal? Who benefits from it being kept secret and clandestine?

Personally, I don't give a singular **** about dealings between Paramount and CBS in regards to Discovery. We got a new, proper Trek show on Television, that's all that matters to me; All this nonsense about how the "Prime" timeline isn't actually the ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline is just a bunch of nerd wankery. I'm a fully signed on Star Trek fan. With the exception of TAS and the last Season of Enterprise, I've seen every piece of television or film produced in that franchise. I didn't feel betrayed by the Bad Robot films (disappointed, sure) and their attempt to reboot the franchise, I don't feel particularly betrayed by Discovery and whatever Kurtzman and CBS are doing now.

Honestly, what this sounds like to me is that these people are so fixated on one particular vision of Star Trek (The Roddenberry/Berman one) that they have something of a kneejerk reaction to anyone else's version of that material.

Quote
What I found most interesting from that video was actually the revelation that the new movies *didn't* have any version of actual canon star trek embedded in its own storyline, that it was either the new timeline or their own particular version of canon dubbed "Prime line", which was also required to be at least 25% different from the original.

But they did. Leonard Nimoy as Spock. What, did they just forget that that happened?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Regarding Nimoy, that ... wasn't the point. I get what you say, but the funny part is that the whole "Real Spock" stuff isn't actually canon (it cannot be so, it has to be at least 25% different), although it's pretty much headcanon by everyone who watched it. It's a "it's not really canon but it's totally canon wink wink" scenario that is just funny to me. It even opens up philosophical questions if you would be so inclined!

Regarding everything else, hey, as a consumer I also care very little, and a lot less than all of these people who are furiously trying to dig up all of this stuff. My whole angle is more about how capitalism is ruining art at the same time it's producing it in the first place.

And you should definitely watch the last season of Enterprise. I've barely watched the second one of it (and none of the third), it was a drag, but the fourth is just great Trek. If Enterprise only comprised of its last season, Enterprise would be heralded as one of the best incarnations of the whole shebang. For real.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
And you should definitely watch the last season of Enterprise. I've barely watched the second one of it (and none of the third), it was a drag, but the fourth is just great Trek. If Enterprise only comprised of its last season, Enterprise would be heralded as one of the best incarnations of the whole shebang. For real.

I took that advice from you a while ago and... was quite disappointed.

I've actually been watching all - and I do mean all - of Star Trek since it hit Netflix.  With the exception of The Animated Series, because just no.  TOS was last on my list, and I'm almost through it.

Season 4 of Enterprise was better than the rest of it - marginally - but still quite a way behind the last 3 years of DS9, and the last 2 seasons of Next Generation, and the last 3 seasons of Voyager.  I know I'm going to get hate for saying Voyager was decent, but it was one of the most uneven Trek shows to air.  Voyager had some abysmal episodes, and some fantastic episodes - it was very hit or miss (not unlike Discovery has been).  DS9 was competently executed with a few stinkers, but the excellent far outweighed the bad.  ENT generally managed mediocre at best.  Season 4 improved it, but it was still nowhere near as well-executed as the best of Voyager, or most of DS9 in particular.  Unless you're bored and just throwing it on while making dinner or something, as I was, my recommendation is to give it a pass.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
The "short trek" episodes from discovery aren't appearing on the phone app or the tv app so I'm going to have to boot the laptop to check that :sigh:


Hate tilly.

Like Saru.


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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
Enterprise season 4 is definitely worth a watch. Don't watch the finale though, you'll rip out your eyes and throw them at the screen.

Regarding the "must be 25% different" thing - that was a quote from the guy that redesigned the original Enterprise for Discovery. And that's all it is. There's nowhere else that says the Abrams movies or Discovery must look 25% different. Midnight's Edge simply jumped on that one quote from that one guy to help them push this narrative that Discovery is somehow legally obliged to look different when in fact there's very little evidence backing that up.

I'm not a big fan of Discovery's look, I'd prefer it if they went with something that's a bit more consistent with canon. This is partly why for a time I bought into ME's narrative that these supposed legal shenanigans are to blame for Discovery looking more like the Abrams movies. It's a compelling theory if it helps you confirm your bias, which it did for me. But as soon as you look at it with a critical eye, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There just isn't enough evidence and it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for CBS to be making a tv show under someone else's licence when they are themselves the principal rights holders.

Discovery has made a few missteps, a lot of them the same missteps that Enterprise took and which can probably be attributed to the limits of a prequel series. But it does seem to be improving at least. That being said, I don't get why they can't make a Star Trek set in the post-Voyager timeline, it would lift the constraints of working with pre-established events and canon, which the Discovery creators don't seem interested in preserving. Maybe that's down to the higher ups wanting IP recognition or something, idk.

So yes there are corporate politics going on, but I don't think ME are a reliable source.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Star Trek Discovery -- This is the good ****
why they can't make a Star Trek set in the post-Voyager timeline

****ing time travel.

No, I'm serious.  I really want a ST series post-Voyager, but ST writers simply cannot quit with the tired old trope of invoking time travel and doing it badly.  It's a recurring theme that ST writers try to reproduce the success with with NextGen actually did interesting things with time travel and **** it up, and they have doubled-down on it further and further in every series post-NextGen that writing a post-Voyager series that manages to invoke interesting, consistent antagonists in a story arc without a bunch of bull**** time travel would be very difficult.  And that's part of the struggle with newer Trek in general - TV has moved to expansive story arcs instead of the flavour-of-the-week episodes that Trek was built on, which is part of the reason that Discovery season 1 was so painful in places.  Trek excels when it explores concepts in new and interesting ways, and it is hard to do that in a season-spanning story.

That said, Discovery season 2 is so far fairly promising and we are getting a new Trek series all about Picard which is post-NextGen and presumably even post-Voyager, so I hope to hell I'm proven wrong.

Seriously though, if I was putting out guidance as an executive producer for series writers, points 1-5 would be "No ****ing time travel, ever." repeated over and over.
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