[Hellbender]

I'll try and get through these arguments logically, however Trash, either you have poor reading comprehension skills, or you are doing nothing more than picking points and attempting to refute them with the flimsiest of assumptions. I'm not trying to insult you, but I'd like to see you put down counter-arguments that at least show you have done more than skim a post. Your main responses to everything said so far are all based on "The GTVA is BIGGER and BETTER than Sol", without much to really support this premise. Just a repetition of the same thing slightly rephrased. You can do better.

Now, down to the important stuff:

Given the rate of population growth, the available space and number of colonies, it's more likely the population of the colonies is greater than Sol
After all, the habitat in Sol is limited, the 20+ planets have more than enough room.
Let's also not forget that the population on Earth has increased from less than a billion to more than 6 billion in less than 100 years.

You are ignoring the likelihood that Sol is the oldest center of human settlement. There are likely numerous extraterrestrial colonies within Sol, such as Mars, Luna, Ceres, perhaps moons of other planets. There may even be terraforming which has rendered Venus a viable habitat. This is to say nothing of the likelihood of numerous installations within the solar system not based on existing solar bodies. Much of this possible colonization probably was well established before the discovery of subspace. This points to the likelihood that the population of Sol would be signifigantly larger than that of the GTVA before the node was closed., Since humans like to reproduce, this would likely have remained a constant factor.

The CURRENT population of Terra alone is enormous, which you've chosen to ignore. Yes, the population increased enormously in 100 years. A century is signifigantly longer than a mere three to four decades, which is all the GTVA would have in our Knossos reopening scenario to increase their populace.

We also know that Sol had research outposts all over the GTA, the techroom confirms that. Thus, there were more than enough scientists spread around and colonies would also have schools and universities, they won't be confined to Earth.

Nobody has denied this, however the backstory also confirms that the lion's share of the R&D and production industry is located in Sol itself. Not all certainly, but a hell of a lot of it. Sol would easily have plenty of technical ability to catch and probably outstrip the GTVA's production and research establishment.

GTVA has acess to Ancient ruins, the Knossos, scans and parts of numerous shivan vessels of which many are the newest and latest designs. That is a BIG bonus in terms of tech development for them.
And 20+ systems have the abilty to support a much bigger war machine, not to mention that the Capella BBQ might push the GTVA into a large military production more than any Lucy would. 80 Saths parading recently are a reason for fear - 1 Lucy parading 40 years ago really isn't.

Some access yes, of which all collected data from any discoveries would have been passed on to Terra up to the point of the node collapse. Yes, they would not have had access to the latest appearing Shivan ships, nor the Knossos. I do not believe it to be that big an advantage for the GTVA. For the most part GTVA tech was equivalent to their Shivan counterparts in the second incurision. In fact, in many ways it was superior. The newer Shivan units seemed like fairly minor variations of their older designs. The beam cannon was the greatest achievement for the GTVA, and it was matched up by the Shivans. It is unlikely that the engineers in Sol would not have come up with this tech, not to mention possibly surpass the level of the GTVA.

You are again insisting that the rest of the GTVA had a larger population than Sol. In fact the reverse is more likely from the reasons I've stated.

80 Sathanas class juggernauts would be a cause of concern, however they seem to have used the destruction of Capella as a means of boosting their ability to travel. They did not attack the rest of the GTVA - only the one star system. Rather than going into a frenzied military build up, the reverse is more likely: most avaricious politicians want the military budget for their own pet projects and social plans with nothing more at heart than the desire to keep their constituents happy, thus ensuring their continued share of the public trough. They are very fast to purport the belief that the enemy has gone away and public safety is assured.

The Colossus was intended to take on the Lucifer class destroyer by hopefully mounting weaponry strong enough to pierce its shields, on a platform strong enough to withstand the beating it would likely suffer in such a slugfest. It was not intended to take on its opposite number in a duel. The Colossus was not really suited for this role, thus its destruction in battle with a Sathanas without any supporting units for backup. Both of these ship types represented a total brute force approach to ship design. There is little finesse involved in their designs. Just the 'bigger is better' approach.

The Lucifer on the other hand seems to be based on the idea that the best defense is in itself a terrific offense. You don't need more than a few really powerful weapons on a vessel that cannot be harmed by enemy fire. Yes, this type of ship is indeed a serious concern.

After all, let's say Sol had been biulding up it's military. After 30 years of peace and no shivies in sight, do you really think they will keep up the pace?

I can't say for sure about the pace of their buildup, however the knowledge that your home is safe only so long as it remains isolated would be a continuing incentive to build up your defenses with the best you can possibly produce. Not neccesarily at a fever pitch, but at least a continuous effort. A political entity that has at least the illusion of its continued safety does not have that incentive.

Last, but not least  - isn't the USA the military and economicly most powerul nation in the world? Cut it off them the rest of the world - who will be hit worse by that cut - the US or the rest of the world? The US f'course. Being the biggest means you also export and outsource the most, and then you're also affected the most by a collapse like that.

In the short term, yes, however it does not usually take an enormous ammount of time for humans to adapt to their situation and get things up and running again. In your example you have a prosperous country with a large, well educated population, and a great deal of natural resources at its disposal. After a decade or so it would recover and become its own self contained 'world'. Also, the US has an enormous influence on the rest of the world. I have little doubt that its sudden removal from the world scene would cause an awful lot of  economic issues, not to mention military and political. The rest of the world also would survive, but they would not be very happy for a signifigant ammount of time.

[Retsof]

Sol had access to the Lucifer debris, they may have been able to develop capship shields. 

[Bob-san]

Not to mention more intact Shivan fighters and weapons than the GTVA... plus possibly hundreds of Shivans, live and dead, to examine and experiment on. I would say that it's very likely they got enough debris from the planet-razing beam to construct their own. Even untested, a weapon of this magnitude would give Sol a large bartering chip against the GTVA.

[Hellbender]

I find it a little difficult to assume that Sol recovered much at all from the Lucifer's wreckage. It is possible, and even probable that something was recovered as we go by the final FS1 cutscene as canon. I wouldn't automatically assume that anything useful was recovered beyond scrap metal. This is a grey area that is open to speculation and interpretation.  I really wouldn't care to make any assumptions on this topic, although it does make for fun speculation.

It's a safer bet that Sol had access to anything gathered by the GTA and PVN right up to the node collapse, which is likely a very large ammount indeed.

[Mobius]

I don't think so. They could get the flux cannons...look

[TrashMan]

*sniped rant*

Yeah..poor me. Excuse me for not wasting two hours writing a long-winded response to demostrate my "intelectual superiority". Yes, I read fast and I type fast, but my poitns stil lstand. Alltough you might be the one needing glasses.

You are ignoring the likelihood that Sol is the oldest center of human settlement. There are likely numerous extraterrestrial colonies within Sol, such as Mars, Luna, Ceres, perhaps moons of other planets. There may even be terraforming which has rendered Venus a viable habitat. This is to say nothing of the likelihood of numerous installations within the solar system not based on existing solar bodies. Much of this possible colonization probably was well established before the discovery of subspace. This points to the likelihood that the population of Sol would be signifigantly larger than that of the GTVA before the node was closed., Since humans like to reproduce, this would likely have remained a constant factor.

The CURRENT population of Terra alone is enormous, which you've chosen to ignore. Yes, the population increased enormously in 100 years. A century is signifigantly longer than a mere three to four decades, which is all the GTVA would have in our Knossos reopening scenario to increase their populace.

I'm not ignoring anything. Earth has limited space. There are very few planetary bodies in Sol that would be adequate for large colonization. Terraforming is a colossal project, that even by most optimistic NASA forcasts would take hunderds of years. Lunar colonies would be very limited as they would require a lot of work to suport even a smaller population. sol would have some form of population control going - heck we have it going even now!

On the other hand, you got large terrestrial planets in the GTVA, and a few of them are bound to be up to our human standard (water, atmosphere, vegetation). No barriers to breeding freely there. Just a large expense and many possibilities.
Last but not least - migration. Just how many people left Earth to live on some colonies? Probably billions.

All in all, chances are the GTVA has a far greater population than Earth.

Nobody has denied this, however the backstory also confirms that the lion's share of the R&D and production industry is located in Sol itself. Not all certainly, but a hell of a lot of it. Sol would easily have plenty of technical ability to catch and probably outstrip the GTVA's production and research establishment.

How much is a bulk? Labs are easily enough constructed - heck the GTVA could have more than Sol in a year if they focused on that. So that tells you nothing.
And I've seen NOTHING in the backstory or anything that confirms the bulk of the research was done on Earth. All discoveries I remember from FS1 were done somewhere else.

Some access yes, of which all collected data from any discoveries would have been passed on to Terra up to the point of the node collapse. Yes, they would not have had access to the latest appearing Shivan ships, nor the Knossos. I do not believe it to be that big an advantage for the GTVA. For the most part GTVA tech was equivalent to their Shivan counterparts in the second incurision. In fact, in many ways it was superior. The newer Shivan units seemed like fairly minor variations of their older designs. The beam cannon was the greatest achievement for the GTVA, and it was matched up by the Shivans. It is unlikely that the engineers in Sol would not have come up with this tech, not to mention possibly surpass the level of the GTVA.

Oh? And you think nothing of interest was found in in the last 30 years from the ancient ruins? Why the heck are all finding classified then?
And the game makes it clear the Mara is the most advanced shivan fighter yet encountered - more advanced than the Dragon. Scans of the Sath? If a Lucy scan = beam, the Sath scan can only be a good thing.
Oh, one last note. Shivan flux Cannon << BGreen. If you recall FS1 it too 4-5 full salvos(2 beams) for the Lucy to kill the Galatea. Not to say the Earthling can't improve on that quite a bit.
the posibiltiy always exist that one side or another will have a technologal/scientific revolution, by chance, fluke or dilligent research, or just trough the works of a super-genius...but hte side with more advantages is more likely to have such a breaktrough. That side is the GTVA.

80 Sathanas class juggernauts would be a cause of concern, however they seem to have used the destruction of Capella as a means of boosting their ability to travel. They did not attack the rest of the GTVA - only the one star system. Rather than going into a frenzied military build up, the reverse is more likely: most avaricious politicians want the military budget for their own pet projects and social plans with nothing more at heart than the desire to keep their constituents happy, thus ensuring their continued share of the public trough. They are very fast to purport the belief that the enemy has gone away and public safety is assured.

What the shivans did is anyones guess. What they might have done had the GTVA not collapsed the node is also anyones guess, but one this is for sure - if they decided to press on, they would trample the GTVA more than a Lucy ever could.

In the short term, yes, however it does not usually take an enormous ammount of time for humans to adapt to their situation and get things up and running again. In your example you have a prosperous country with a large, well educated population, and a great deal of natural resources at its disposal. After a decade or so it would recover and become its own self contained 'world'. Also, the US has an enormous influence on the rest of the world. I have little doubt that its sudden removal from the world scene would cause an awful lot of  economic issues, not to mention military and political. The rest of the world also would survive, but they would not be very happy for a signifigant ammount of time.

Actualyl, to be frank, methinks most of the world would be VERY happy and it would fare far better. You see, you got 190+ countres, each can trade with one another if hte US goes away. Us on the other hand can't trade with any one of them if it's cut off.

[Snail]

Personally I think Sol just nuked itself into oblivion. But this is a cool discussion. Carry on.

[karajorma]

Alltough you might be the one needing glasses.

I usually don't agree with pointing out typos for ridicule but that's ****ing hilarious.

I'm not ignoring anything. Earth has limited space. There are very few planetary bodies in Sol that would be adequate for large colonization. Terraforming is a colossal project, that even by most optimistic NASA forcasts would take hunderds of years. Lunar colonies would be very limited as they would require a lot of work to suport even a smaller population. sol would have some form of population control going - heck we have it going even now!

On the other hand, you got large terrestrial planets in the GTVA, and a few of them are bound to be up to our human standard (water, atmosphere, vegetation). No barriers to breeding freely there. Just a large expense and many possibilities.
Last but not least - migration. Just how many people left Earth to live on some colonies? Probably billions.

Didn't you earlier try to make the claim that space flight was expensive in order to justify your claims about mining? But now it's cheap enough that billions of people can leave Sol to live in the colonies?

And why would the planets the GTVA colonised not necessarily have needed terraforming before they were settled? Again you're assuming human habitable planets are commonplace. They might not be. The GTVA might have terraformed several of their major planets. Actually the whole thing is rather funny cause last week you were arguing that the double stars that in the FS universe couldn't even have planets that were habitable cause they'd fall out of orbit into their star.

Labs are easily enough constructed - heck the GTVA could have more than Sol in a year if they focused on that.

Not if Sol focused on it too.

Two can play at that game.

Oh? And you think nothing of interest was found in in the last 30 years from the ancient ruins? Why the heck are all finding classified then?

Cause the GTVA classify everything. The incident with Bosch and the Iceni's discovery. The mara is classified even though the player flies one of the bloody things. What the admirals have for breakfast is probably classified too. The game never refers to them finding anything from the ancients apart from subspace tracking.

In fact there is nothing to point to the ancients being any more developed than the Terrans and Vasudans except in their understanding of subspace.

Actualyl, to be frank, methinks most of the world would be VERY happy and it would fare far better. You see, you got 190+ countres, each can trade with one another if hte US goes away. Us on the other hand can't trade with any one of them if it's cut off.

Except that the US doesn't have the bulk of the world's infrastructure. So it's not exactly a valid comparison. If it did then yes the rest of the world would suffer more.

[Kie99]

In the short term, yes, however it does not usually take an enormous ammount of time for humans to adapt to their situation and get things up and running again. In your example you have a prosperous country with a large, well educated population, and a great deal of natural resources at its disposal. After a decade or so it would recover and become its own self contained 'world'. Also, the US has an enormous influence on the rest of the world. I have little doubt that its sudden removal from the world scene would cause an awful lot of  economic issues, not to mention military and political. The rest of the world also would survive, but they would not be very happy for a signifigant ammount of time.

Actualyl, to be frank, methinks most of the world would be VERY happy and it would fare far better. You see, you got 190+ countres, each can trade with one another if hte US goes away. Us on the other hand can't trade with any one of them if it's cut off.

Are you seriously suggesting that the world would be better off without trade with the US?  That does beg the question of why countries bother to trade with the US in the first place.

[TrashMan]

Didn't you earlier try to make the claim that space flight was expensive in order to justify your claims about mining? But now it's cheap enough that billions of people can leave Sol to live in the colonies?

And why would the planets the GTVA colonised not necessarily have needed terraforming before they were settled? Again you're assuming human habitable planets are commonplace. They might not be. The GTVA might have terraformed several of their major planets. Actually the whole thing is rather funny cause last week you were arguing that the double stars that in the FS universe couldn't even have planets that were habitable cause they'd fall out of orbit into their star.

I said it might be that it's expensive. I'm giving possibilities, not absolutes. Nothing conflicting there.

I'm also not assuming human habitable planets are commonplace, but the GTVA is big, there's bound to be one or two that would look as good as Earth.
that said - double stars? Which systems? I don't recall seeing double stars in no mission in GTVA territory..

Labs are easily enough constructed - heck the GTVA could have more than Sol in a year if they focused on that.

Not if Sol focused on it too.

Two can play at that game.

And again, there's a limit. It's not a problem for either the GTVA or Sol to build labs. It's staffing them. You have a limit to how many people are educated enough and willing. Unless you plan to force your populace to become scientists at gunpoint. But who's gonna do all the other things then?

Except that the US doesn't have the bulk of the world's infrastructure. So it's not exactly a valid comparison. If it did then yes the rest of the world would suffer more.

Neither does Sol. GTVA systems seemed to be doing just fine with their infrastructure to me.

[Hellbender]

Never argue with me. I will drag you down to my level and then beat you with experience.

I thought that was a joke. After this:

Yeah..poor me. Excuse me for not wasting two hours writing a long-winded response to demostrate my "intelectual superiority". Yes, I read fast and I type fast, but my poitns stil lstand. Alltough you might be the one needing glasses.

I see it is your way of life.

Pardon me for asking you to try to come up with more sensible arguments. At least I took the time to actually read your posts and write a coherent reply to them. I should have understood your limitations after you kept repeating yourself. I won't bother in future.

Anyhow, there has been plenty of solid thought that Sol could easily be equal or better to the GTVA in terms of population, industry, and military strength. There are mostly variations on the GTVA is bigger and better than Sol theory against the idea. Ultimately however, as nothing is written in stone (canon) to clarify the subject except in tiny bits here and there, the subject is up to the perception of the writer of any campaign or story on the subject.

[Gamma_Draconis]

You know, I wonder what kind of ship designs the Humans would have. I would imagine they would keep to the blocky designs from the old GTA days. As for beam weaponry, we could take a leap and even say that they never managed to create beam weaponry. What if they decided to improve heavily on their blob turrets. Turn them into anti-capital ship weapons, imagine something like 20 Avenger Mk.2 cannons firing. I could see Flak cannons developed and since they are not as relied on beam weaponry, their tactics could involve making a huge screen of flak fire (BGS anyone?). This would mean that Sol ships are designed for closer range combat but are much less vulnerable to strategic strikes. Loads of decent blob turrets and maybe even capital ship shielding. As for fighters, I could see designs such as the Apollo Mk. 2 or a new variation of the Herc. Sol is pretty much a cradle of ideas for us to speculate on.

Since Sol holds most of the industrial might of the former GTA, I would imagine they would be building giant blocky ships. Let's say, 5 km long Orions-like destroyers. Something like 2-3 of those as the capital ship of the 2-3 major fleets. Each fleet could be divided into 3 sections, the command group and two battle groups.

[Koth]

Personally I think Sol just nuked itself into oblivion.

That doesn't really fit MT, eh? Come on Snail drop some subtle hints about the Terran Alliance.

[karajorma]

And again, there's a limit. It's not a problem for either the GTVA or Sol to build labs. It's staffing them. You have a limit to how many people are educated enough and willing. Unless you plan to force your populace to become scientists at gunpoint. But who's gonna do all the other things then?

And now we're back to your completely unproven assertion that the GTVA has many more people than Sol.

You still haven't proved it. Arguments based on it are worthless.

[Snail]

250 million people is considered "Highly populated." IMO it's safe to assume the GTVA does not have TOO many people.

[karajorma]

Good point. It does say in A Flaming Sword that Capella is heavily populated.

A small task force will oversee the demolition of the Knossos while the bulk of the allied fleet blockades the jump node leading to the densely-populated Capella system.

Oh and while I'm at it.

A situation is developing near the inhabited planet of Cygnus Prime. We have over 100,000 Vasudan refugees fleeing their colonies in transports. Allied ships are rescuing the Vasudans as quickly as possible, though the logistics of this operation leave many refugees still vulnerable to rebel attack.

If the Vasudans can form colonies on Cygnis prime and still have only 100,000 people there it's probably not that heavily populated either. Not by Vasudans at least.

[TrashMan]

I see it is your way of life.

Pardon me for asking you to try to come up with more sensible arguments. At least I took the time to actually read your posts and write a coherent reply to them. I should have understood your limitations after you kept repeating yourself. I won't bother in future.

Anyhow, there has been plenty of solid thought that Sol could easily be equal or better to the GTVA in terms of population, industry, and military strength. There are mostly variations on the GTVA is bigger and better than Sol theory against the idea. Ultimately however, as nothing is written in stone (canon) to clarify the subject except in tiny bits here and there, the subject is up to the perception of the writer of any campaign or story on the subject.

Down to charachter assasination again. If YOU bothered to read you'd see that  Ireplies to each of your points.

But in one you are right. The canon leaves so much wiggle room that any scenario is more or less possible. Sol could have become a powerhouse while hte GTVA might have collapsed after Capella..Or vice-versa.
That's what's partially fun about threads like this - we throw ideas around to test how good they are...If anything else, this thread might come in handy for some people planning their own campaign that includes Sol.. since many points have already been discussed here.

That said, the only thing I have really been claiming all this time is that the probability of all of these outcomes are not the same, alltough when calculating that you can always say it's also partially subjective.

[karajorma]

@Hellbender : Let's keep the personal attacks out of it. While I disagree with pretty much 90% of the assertions Trashman has made on this thread I don't think anything is gained by insulting him.

But in one you are right. The canon leaves so much wiggle room that any scenario is more or less possible. Sol could have become a powerhouse while hte GTVA might have collapsed after Capella..Or vice-versa.
That's what's partially fun about threads like this - we throw ideas around to test how good they are...If anything else, this thread might come in handy for some people planning their own campaign that includes Sol.. since many points have already been discussed here.

That said, the only thing I have really been claiming all this time is that the probability of all of these outcomes are not the same, alltough when calculating that you can always say it's also partially subjective.

If that's what you've been doing you really need to tell your earlier posts.

Sol fighting against the GTVA? That would be not only terribly stupid but also suicidal.

Realisticly, Sol has no real chance in a war, it's simply outclassed in manpower, industry and versatility.

Doesn't sound like a fair and balanced appraisal of the chances that Sol could fight aand win a war against the rest of the GTVA to me. You flat out claimed they'd lose. The entire tone of your argument has been that the GTVA would always win and that there are no conditions under which Sol could be more powerful. I'd have dropped the entire matter several pages back if you were saying that Sol going to war was a reasonable possibility even if you think that it not going to war is more likely (Hell that's the position I hold but I'm not going to flat out state that a situation like in Inferno is suicidal or stupid).

If you want to take a more reasonable line on the whole thing now that's fine but don't try to claim that's been your position the entire time. I really don't think you're going to fool anyone into believing that.

[Snail]

You know what would be cool? If Mobius and Snail joined this discussion.

[Hellbender]

If the Vasudans can form colonies on Cygnis prime and still have only 100,000 people there it's probably not that heavily populated either. Not by Vasudans at least.

I have to wonder exactly how large the Vasudan populace could be for the GTVA. I get the picture from the story that they were not heavily populated before the Shivans blasted their homeworld to dust bunnies.

When Vasuda Prime was flattened by the SD Lucifer, the following briefing text was given:

Aftermath of Vasuda Attack

Most escaping transport ships were destroyed.  All major Vasudan cities were leveled, and most of the landmass was rendered uninhabitable.  All of our attacks launched from the nearby installations were defeated.  

We have lost contact with all Terran ships in the area, but it appears that the Shivan fleet has now moved on.  It’s estimated that four billion innocent Vasudans lost their lives in the attack.

This was the Vasudan home world, and probably the most heavily populated Vasudan settlement period. Colonies would generally be much smaller in over all populace. Just how small though is open to guesswork.

On to the Terran GTVA population:

The following comes from the species tech room entries. While it indicates a numerical measure of the Terran colonies, it says nothing about how well populated these places are.

To date, Terrans have successfully colonized twelve worlds outside of the Sol system.  Outposts have been established on fifteen other planets and moons throughout the known galaxy.  If the past is any indicator of future trends, unified expansionism will only continue to benefit the Alliance, both politically and economically.

My personal take is that all of these colonies together probably have a lower population than the home system. If, as has been stated, Capella's 250 million people is considered a dense population, What is considered sparse? Additionally, how many of these colonies and outposts are densly populated, and how many not? Even if the twelve major colonies all have 250,000,000, then 12 * 250,000,000 = 3,000,000,000.

Now if for the sake of argument, if we give the outposts the same population allowance as the planet colonies, it works out: (12+15) * 250,000,000 = 6,750,000,000.

The current population of Terra according to the U.S. Census Bureau : 6,638,068,993...  Hmmm...

I've given the best information I could find. I think the statistics more likely support Sol as having the greater population. As far as resources go, there is enormous wealth available all over the solar system. Definitely enough to support a large scale armanent build up over an extended period of time. Terra would easily have the population it would need to support its building and research programs.

It's a little silly to equate a quantity of settlements as automatically being greater in populace and ability when compared to a single system like Sol just because it has a lower number of inhabitable planets.

My interpretation is that depending on the type of administrators in charge of Sol at the time the subspace pathway is reopened, the situation does have a possibility of degenerating into open hostilities.

Would you want your only point of entry and exit to be controlled by someone else? Especially if the possibility exists that the party in control may attempt to hold that advatage to gain some type of concessions from you? Under the situations that have been discussed (Terran military build up, decades of fear of extinction) it is very easy to see a war starting. Perhaps the administration of Sol would insist in taking control of the Terran parts of the GTVA... There are a lot of possibilities though.

I'm not saying there would be a conflict, just that the possibility does exist, and it is not that far fetched. Neither is the idea that Terra might come out on top in any conflict with the colonies, especially if the Vasudans stay out of it.

Let's keep the personal attacks out of it. While I disagree with pretty much 90% of the assertions Trashman has made on this thread I don't think anything is gained by insulting him.

I hadn't intended insulting him. He chose to interpret my comments previously to that post as a personal attack. They were intended as constructive criticism, although now that I've reread the origional comments they were perhaps a bit harsher than I'd intended. I don't feel they merited the petty insults that followed, however I should have just ignored it and gotten back to this topic.