Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Sarafan on August 27, 2007, 01:45:34 pm
-
So everyone just keeps saying that the Shivans are this and that and that they have better beams, armor, numbers, Juggernauts, etc, etc. :D But I ask you, what advantages does the GTVA has over the Shivans? Think hard and answer!
One of the advantages I think they have is weapons placement, specially anti-capship weapons. The GTVA seems to employ more power on broadsides, the Orion being the best example, and that's the best way to engage shivan warships. The Shivans rely too much on frontal firepower to take down other ships and while their better beams might easily take out enemy ships at the beginning of a battle, if a ship manages to maneuver out of their limited arc or to start the battle by engaging them side by side, the Shivans would most likely lose. Two exceptions being the Lilith and Cain, of course but only them.
-
Anti-fighter capability. Shivan ships are generally very poor in that area compared to GTVA ships. Also their fighter-based primaries are far worse than the high-end GTVA weapons.
-
GTVA has:
- better pilots
- rearm ships
- better AF defenses
- better weapon coverage (in general)
- better intelligence
- better tactics
-
- better intelligence
- better tactics
Why do you say better intelligence and tatics? On FS1 the Lucifer outmaneuvered the GTA fleet to attack Vasuda Prime, that show the shivans know how to think at least.
-
Didn't we agree on a moratorium on "Alpha 1!!!!" and "Command is stupid!!!" arguments a while back, or was I just dreaming?
-
The GTVA might not be a tactical genius, but they're not stupid! The Shivans have had a more strait-forward plan, or so it seems. I would say the GTVA has planning and fighter superiority--the Terran and Vasudan pilots tend to have superior fighter skills.
-
- better intelligence
- better tactics
Why do you say better intelligence and tatics? On FS1 the Lucifer outmaneuvered the GTA fleet to attack Vasuda Prime, that show the shivans know how to think at least.
Becosue we study them, learn from them, adapt. We gather info on their ships and weapons, we steal from them.
And the only reason Lucifer outmanuvered the GTA fleet was becosue it could use jump nodes they couldn't and they didn't know it at that time.
-
- better intelligence
Are you serious??
-
- better intelligence
Are you serious??
Everyone knows how stupid Command is!!
:snipe: :beamz: :hammer: :headz:
-
Didn't we agree on a moratorium on "Alpha 1!!!!" and "Command is stupid!!!" arguments a while back, or was I just dreaming?
We did.
-
- better intelligence
Are you serious??
Everyone knows how stupid Command is!!
:snipe: :beamz: :hammer: :headz:
Yeah. I forgot about the ban on Command jokes, so I deleted that part.
-
- better intelligence
Are you serious??
Everyone knows how stupid Command is!!
:snipe: :beamz: :hammer: :headz:
Yeah. I forgot about the ban on Command jokes, so I deleted that part.
:wtf: deleted and quoted at the same time... contradicting much?
-
- better intelligence
I quoted what someone else quoted.
:snipe: :beamz: :hammer: :headz:
Yeah. I forgot about the ban on Command jokes, so I deleted that part.
:wtf: deleted and quoted at the same time... contradicting much?
I quoted what someone ELSE quoted.
-
Pointless Alpha 1 comment deleted. Pardons, I'm not the most stable person around.
But seriously. Adapting to new situations is an advantage. The Ancients couldn't do that and for that reason were (presumably) obliterated. Terrans and Vasudans didn't waste time when they encountered Shivans. They immediately began to collect information about shields and weapons while also observing the Shivans' actions and trying to find weaknesses or flaws in their actions.
I do think that Shivans are also capable of adapting but not necessary on a scale as large as the GTVA. Take Their Finest Hour, for example. The Shivans did figure out that mere cruisers and fighters weren't sufficient in destroying the Colossus and the accompanying battle group, so they sent the Beast and eventually even one Sathanas. Still, from what I've understood, they don't make any complex battle plans or strategies that the GTVA does.
-
Why do the Shivans need to adapt? They don't seem to have any problem doing whatever they want to do.
-
They had a problem killing the GTVA.
-
Why do the Shivans need to adapt? They don't seem to have any problem doing whatever they want to do.
Well, adapting would be useful for example in the age-old 'Colossus vs Sathanas' scenario in the event that a Sathanas would appear somewhere around GTVA space. If the Colossus or basically any ship with decent firepower was to jump behind the Sathanas, it would be safe to assume that the Shivans would be pretty much like:
"Oh, bum grapes. Now what? We have no appropriate rear weapons."
"I dunno. How 'bout turning? Should we try that?"
"Well, it takes an awful lot of time, but ok. I guess there aren't any options."
And at the same time the GTVA would be kicking the living daylight of the Sath.
-
They had a problem killing the GTVA.
Considering they had over 80 Sathanas at the GTVA's doorstep and didn't even bother to flood the rest of GTVA space with their armada, somehow I can't really see that as an issue.
Well, adapting would be useful for example in the age-old 'Colossus vs Sathanas' scenario in the event that a Sathanas would appear somewhere around GTVA space. If the Colossus or basically any ship with decent firepower was to jump behind the Sathanas, it would be safe to assume that the Shivans would be pretty much like:
"Oh, bum grapes. Now what? We have no appropriate rear weapons."
"I dunno. How 'bout turning? Should we try that?"
"Well, it takes an awful lot of time, but ok. I guess there aren't any options."
And at the same time the GTVA would be kicking the living daylight of the Sath.
Explain why the Colossus sometimes has trouble against the Sathanas in High Noon then if you don't disable all the beam turrets. Hell, if it were that simple why even disarm the Sathanas at all?
It takes an eternity for the Colossus to destroy the Sathanas even with their beams being overcharged. The Sathanas has more than enough time to turn (which surprisingly isn't as slow as people make it out to be) and do what it does.
-
They had a problem killing the GTVA.
Considering they had over 80 Sathanas at the GTVA's doorstep and didn't even bother to flood the rest of GTVA space with their armada, somehow I can't really see that as an issue.
I meant in FS1.
Yeah they would have annihilated the GTVA with the Saths... but they didn't even try, so I say that is moot.
-
I still think that the Shivans didn't quite know what to do in High Noon. The Sathanas had two working forward beam cannons at max, and it was facing the Colossus and a bomber wing. IF they knew how to adapt or anything, they would have done something else than launch a couple of fighter wings and just keep on going forward.
-
They had a problem killing the GTVA.
Considering they had over 80 Sathanas at the GTVA's doorstep and didn't even bother to flood the rest of GTVA space with their armada, somehow I can't really see that as an issue.
I meant in FS1.
Yeah they would have annihilated the GTVA with the Saths... but they didn't even try, so I say that is moot.
Couldn't you say they've improved from FS1 to FS2 then? :p
I still think that the Shivans didn't quite know what to do in High Noon. The Sathanas had two working forward beam cannons at max, and it was facing the Colossus and a bomber wing. IF they knew how to adapt or anything, they would have done something else than launch a couple of fighter wings and just keep on going forward.
The other 80+ Sathanas on it's tail tend to disagree. They don't need to adapt to that situation since their forces are so massive they can let a ship or two bite the dust.
-
That's not strategy...that rush tactics.
-
It works, don't fix it. That's my motto.
-
The other 80+ Sathanas on it's tail tend to disagree. They don't need to adapt to that situation since their forces are so massive they can let a ship or two bite the dust.
Then again, the Shivans deployed the Lucifer to go and get the Taranis back. So why would they just ignore the first Sathanas and leave it all alone?
-
because it wasnt captured, it was exploded
-
Then why the countless other blatant disregard for their ship's safety?
And somehow I don't think the Lucifer laid the Tombaugh station to waste just for the Taranis. I always viewed the Taranis as some kind of bait/beacon.
-
Then why the countless other blatant disregard for their ship's safety?
And somehow I don't think the Lucifer laid the Tombaugh station to waste just for the Taranis. I always viewed the Taranis as some kind of bait/beacon.
Touché. Though I'd assume that the Shivans didn't plan to use the Taranis as a bait, but merely saw the opportunity and decided to exploit it.
...which would suggest that they adapted to the current situation, effectively kicking the non-adaption theory in the arse. Dang.
-
Then why the countless other blatant disregard for their ship's safety?
And somehow I don't think the Lucifer laid the Tombaugh station to waste just for the Taranis. I always viewed the Taranis as some kind of bait/beacon.
Touché. Though I'd assume that the Shivans didn't plan to use the Taranis as a bait, but merely saw the opportunity and decided to exploit it.
...which would suggest that they adapted to the current situation, effectively kicking the non-adaption theory in the arse. Dang.
Except, of course, the Taranis did its best to fight back.
And, its more likely that AFTER the Taranis got captured, the shivans tried retrieving it...
Likely a no-man-left-behind thing...
-
GTVA has:
- better pilots
Sure. Just look at the Intro cutscene of FS2. Shivan fighters are weak...in game. They're supposed to be fearsome. Just like the Hecate is supposed to be much better than the Orion, under all points of view.
-
Shivan technology is supposed to be superior..and it was in FS1 too (alltough not for that long). Tehy were fearsome...fight a dragon in a unshielded Apollo with ML-16's and tell me it isn't fearsome!
But yes, GTVA piltos are better becouse they have minds of their own and good training.
shivans are all *EXTZERMINATE*
-
To me it is easier to kill a Shivan on insane than it is to kill a Terran on medium. :nervous:
-
To me it is easier to kill a Shivan on medium than it is to kill a Terran on insane. :nervous:
the word duh comes to mind
-
To me it is easier to kill a Shivan on insane than it is to kill a Terran on medium. :nervous:
What do you mean?
-
Expecially a Dragon or a Mara, eh? :doubt:
Just look at that Manticore. Ingame, Manticores aren't that meneuverable and their shielding and armor plating makes me laugh. But in the cutscene, that Manticore shows the true power of the Shivans...a power we don't see duing the game.
-
To me it is easier to kill a Shivan on insane than it is to kill a Terran on medium. :nervous:
What do you mean?
What the hell? You quoted yourself and asked yourself what you mean? :wtf:
-
That was to Hippo who said "duh".
-
he quoted his post after he edited the part i commented on
-
I messed up, because my brain is a little num right now.
-
Well considering that the GTVA had only scans of the Lucifers flux cannons whych are suposde to be the precursor to the moder day shivan beams it is no surprise that the shivana beams are a lot better!
Also one dvantage that the GTVA has and will continue to exploit is the range advantage! GTVA beams have a longer range then theyr terran counterparts! This is one way to kill of an uber ship...just start punding it before it can get in range of its own weapons and o any significant damage!
There is also the MJolnir cannons whyc are impresive to say the least! \
Also better pilots and better primaries on they fighters/bommbers!
Btter corvettes and overwhealmingly good aaaf defences compared to the shivans! Also the GTVA ships are better suited for all round fighting! If the shivans were to be put in a defensive situation the would bite the dust so fast it would make your head spin!
Also better tactics.
Also the signle greatest advantage over the shivans the GTVA has it is its masively superior adaptation skills ! The GTVA advanced in a mather of decades by studiiing the shivans a few hundred even thousand of years! Also the GTVA is evolving at a much much greater speed then the shivans could even dram off! If this keeps up then the GTVA in a matter of decades to 1 century could very well surpase the shivans in tech achievements!
They alredy have better ship designs if not better beams! But then again this is just a matter of time!
One thing that the GTVA does not have on its side and which is its achielies heal is its age! Its very young barely an infant compared to the age of the shivans! However for a race this old the shivans have better beams and more ships and....well....thats about it....!
-
One thing that the GTVA does not have on its side and which is its achielies heal is its age!
GRAMMARPOLICE: Heel dude, its Heel. Sorry it was just annoying me everytime you posted it in various threads.
*runs aways after successfuly went OT*
-
Damn i know my grammar suck big time! Get of my back i would like to see you post in romanian with the proper gramar! I'm dooing my best to improve mi spelling! Also most of these post are rush posts so some grammar mistakes have nothing to do with mi limited knoledge of english grammar!
-
Thread Police:
Guys, stop changing your posts after somebody has already responded to you and/or quoted you. It's extremely annoying for everybody involved in the conversation. Editing posts is, of course, preferable to posting twice in a row, but for goodness sake stick an EDIT marker in there so you don't screw up the conversation.
-
The constant theme in FreeSpace has always been about how humans adapt and change to meet the challenges posed to them. This is a pretty common science fiction theme and I wonder if its a deep rooted self preservation scheme thats located somewhere near the very core of our beings. Humans are exceptional survivors...not all of us and not all at once...but we ultimately know how to survive and adapt and make do and confront that which challenges us.
The Shivans are presented (I've mentioned this before) as an almost elemental threat...they are like the wind made manifest. So it is very much a "man versus nature" archetype that is being presented in the FreeSpace story. Some of the other posts have already touched on these ideas...we've stolen, adapted, changed, and presented the Shivans a challenge...even a few defeats or stalemates in a few instances that have been presented to us.
So I think that is the great power of the humans in FreeSpace. The other great power is the ability to set other concerns aside and make peace with the Vasudans. Sworn enemies at the beginning of FreeSpace, it turns out that the Vasudans are part of the key to defeating the Shivans. Its possibly this combination which may never have occurred before that ultimately defeats the Shivans. I don't know what their long term plans were but there are quite a few themes that you can derive from the stories...some of them are probably not meant to be there strictly as such but they do come out. Its classic story telling which makes the game all that much more immersive.
-
The constant theme in FreeSpace has always been about how humans adapt and change to meet the challenges posed to them. This is a pretty common science fiction theme and I wonder if its a deep rooted self preservation scheme thats located somewhere near the very core of our beings. Humans are exceptional survivors...not all of us and not all at once...but we ultimately know how to survive and adapt and make do and confront that which challenges us.
The Shivans are presented (I've mentioned this before) as an almost elemental threat...they are like the wind made manifest. So it is very much a "man versus nature" archetype that is being presented in the FreeSpace story. Some of the other posts have already touched on these ideas...we've stolen, adapted, changed, and presented the Shivans a challenge...even a few defeats or stalemates in a few instances that have been presented to us.
So I think that is the great power of the humans in FreeSpace. The other great power is the ability to set other concerns aside and make peace with the Vasudans. Sworn enemies at the beginning of FreeSpace, it turns out that the Vasudans are part of the key to defeating the Shivans. Its possibly this combination which may never have occurred before that ultimately defeats the Shivans. I don't know what their long term plans were but there are quite a few themes that you can derive from the stories...some of them are probably not meant to be there strictly as such but they do come out. Its classic story telling which makes the game all that much more immersive.
/agree
I dont think the shivans have ever met a race quite like the humans or the vasudans, imagine their shock when they meet them again in FS2 and all of a sudden the GTVA has been tech.
-
Also one dvantage that the GTVA has and will continue to exploit is the range advantage! GTVA beams have a longer range then theyr terran counterparts! This is one way to kill of an uber ship...just start punding it before it can get in range of its own weapons and o any significant damage!
:rolleyes:
Did you forget somehow that the BFRed has only 600 meters range less than the LRBGreen?
-
Well considering that the GTVA had only scans of the Lucifers flux cannons whych are suposde to be the precursor to the moder day shivan beams it is no surprise that the shivana beams are a lot better!
Also one dvantage that the GTVA has and will continue to exploit is the range advantage! GTVA beams have a longer range then theyr terran counterparts! This is one way to kill of an uber ship...just start punding it before it can get in range of its own weapons and o any significant damage!
There is also the MJolnir cannons whyc are impresive to say the least! \
Wtf? The GTVA beams have are compared to TERRAN beams??
Wtf?
-
Well considering that the GTVA had only scans of the Lucifers flux cannons whych are suposde to be the precursor to the moder day shivan beams it is no surprise that the shivana beams are a lot better!
Also one dvantage that the GTVA has and will continue to exploit is the range advantage! GTVA beams have a longer range then theyr terran counterparts! This is one way to kill of an uber ship...just start punding it before it can get in range of its own weapons and o any significant damage!
There is also the MJolnir cannons whyc are impresive to say the least! \
Wtf? The GTVA beams have are compared to TERRAN beams??
Wtf?
Its mind numbingly obvious he meant compared to Shivan beams.
-
Well considering that the GTVA had only scans of the Lucifers flux cannons whych are suposde to be the precursor to the moder day shivan beams it is no surprise that the shivana beams are a lot better!
Also one dvantage that the GTVA has and will continue to exploit is the range advantage! GTVA beams have a longer range then theyr terran counterparts! This is one way to kill of an uber ship...just start punding it before it can get in range of its own weapons and o any significant damage!
There is also the MJolnir cannons whyc are impresive to say the least! \
Wtf? The GTVA beams have are compared to TERRAN beams??
Wtf?
Its mind numbingly obvious he meant compared to Shivan beams.
Sorry, I didnt know that.
-
Ok i get it ! Improve mi damn english spelling already!
Also what the hell do you mean 600m ! is that it? I could of bet that GTVA beams have a range bigger then that of the shivan beams by at leat 1k ! I must check the wikipedia!
altough this does not surprise me somehow since GTVA beasm are based on shivan tech !
I believe the Mjolnir cannon is the first true GTVA beam cannon! Also Those LRBGreens should really be made to be just that Long Range not just a little more range then theie terran counterparts!
And abaout advantages I believe that the single greatest advantage should be the terran/vasudan ingenuity! The terran/vasudan minds! since well the shivans do not seem al that inventive to begin with! I mean consider the age of such a race and well they kinda suck big time! I mean in 8000 years all they could come up with were uber beams and uber ships of doom that do weird subspace stuff! Well duh i say since they are particulari sensitive to subspace developind some sort of advanced subspace tech is a logical thing to do but other then that....kinda nothing!
The shivans are a dead race as far as i'm concerned! They have the age advantage for the moment! But at the current speed with which GTVA enegniers and scientists adapt improve and evolve GTVA tech pretty soon the shivans will be left behind in the tech supremacy race!
At least that is my opinion!
-
We haven't even seen a single Shivan installation or colony. One would wonder where all the Shivan supplies are stored and produced. The GTVA does have a superior intelligence branch. SoC provides invaluable data about enemy fleet position and etc. For all we know, the Shivans may have outnumber GTVA from 1 to 1,000,000,000. We're not even sure if they're from the same universe.
-
Shivans have numbers on their side. They can sacrifice a whole juggernaut fleet as if they were just zerglings to get the job done.
The GTVA has the advantage of adaptability. If they capture Shivan technology in its entirety, they can not only replicate it exactly, but also make significant improvements on it (SF Mara, Sekhmet, UD-8 Kayser), thereby closing the technological age gap almost instantly.
In addition, the GTVA fighter wings, one-for-one, are better than the Shivans, since they need to be in order to stand a fighting chance (GTVA has limited numbers, so they need to preserve as many pilots and combatcraft as possible to beat off Shivan swarms, hence the rearm/repair ships + generally higher hull hps). This also means, many of these pilots gain lots of experience in combatting Shivans, which = better survival + kill more Shivans, while the average Shivan pilot is basically a rookie, and dies a rookie.
GTVA also has better anti-fighter defenses (Leviathan, Aeolus, Deimos and Sobeks all eat fighters + bombers for lunch).
Another point is that the GTVA has stealth fighters, which you could send as surgical strikers to take down key, weak targets (freighters/transports, cargo, subsystems and turrets on Shivan warships...etc.).
The most important advantage is that, the GTVA has survived two major Shivan wars already. They will be able to survive others.
-
Well, they didn't really survived the second war. The Shivans could have completely wiped them off but they decided not to.
-
No, but in the second war when the invincible force came about the gtva was able to do something proven about it. The gtva kept the shivan advance from going any further...well if the sathani wanted to go any further...the gtva hatched the perfect plan. Now in fs1 the slaughter starts at the arrival of the shivans, and continues through out the whole game with the shivans first invincible force the lucifer. The gta and pvn didn't know what to do about the lucifer so the slaughtering it was doing it continued to do so.
There's your difference between fs1 and fs2.
Gtva has waaaayy better ships than the shivans do. Well, the fenris isn't really that great. GTVA has superior weapons (not including the beams), superior fighters, superior antifighter abilities, superior corvettes, superior destroyers. And now's where i don't don't compare gtva freighters to their shivan counterparts. :lol:
-
Well, they didn't really survived the second war. The Shivans could have completely wiped them off but they decided not to.
no. The GTVA has allready planned to collapse the nods the second the first Sath was spotted. What use is a invincible armada if you can't get to your target?
-
Damn i know my grammar suck big time! Get of my back i would like to see you post in romanian with the proper gramar! I'm dooing my best to improve mi spelling! Also most of these post are rush posts so some grammar mistakes have nothing to do with mi limited knoledge of english grammar!
:yes:
Yes...and try to write posts in a very very complex language(Italian or French) :P
The GTVA has the advantage of adaptability. If they capture Shivan technology in its entirety, they can not only replicate it exactly, but also make significant improvements on it (SF Mara, Sekhmet, UD-8 Kayser), thereby closing the technological age gap almost instantly.
In FS1, technicians had serious problems with the captured Dragon. Beams are still primitive. There's no way the GTVA can "match" Shivan technology(expecially subspace technology). It can get closer...but it surely can't fill the gap.
-
FS is like Star Wars. Tech stays the same after thousands of years. That's why the Shivans are no better than they were when they killed the Ancients. There's no adatibility. There's no strategy or "intelligence", in every sense of the word. There are, however, mindless BoEs, wingmen who refuse to use Trebuchets properly, and endlessly respawning wings- that's FS's idea of tactics. And MOAR BEAMs is the only way to win this way.
So it's hard to say which race is more intelligent or adaptable in FS context. Because that isn't the point of the game.
-
The Shivans aren't supposed to use Trebuchets. And Shivan fighters are supposed to be good. I always mention the FS2 Intro.
And a species that fights against the Shivans...well, it doesn't survive. So, even if they manage to acquire Shivan technology, their fate is decided. No matter of what.
-
except we fought them and lived. didn't win, but lived
-
30 years are nothing compared to the time the Shivans needed to eliminate the Ancients.
-
why cant we just leave it at ":v: made the shivans weaker so you would have a chance of winning the game"?
-
It means nothing. The Shivans are already weakened and/or don't use their ships well. The Iblis fires with just one SRed, for example. The Ravana doesn't launch many spacecraft....etc etc
-
Neither fo the GTVA ships..
and it's not true that shivan fighters are weak - they are not. It's the fact that GTVA closed the fihgter design gap, and jumped over it.
Shivan primaries do too little damage, but that's game (in)balance for you.
FS is like Star Wars. Tech stays the same after thousands of years. That's why the Shivans are no better than they were when they killed the Ancients. There's no adatibility. There's no strategy or "intelligence", in every sense of the word. There are, however, mindless BoEs, wingmen who refuse to use Trebuchets properly, and endlessly respawning wings- that's FS's idea of tactics. And MOAR BEAMs is the only way to win this way.
So it's hard to say which race is more intelligent or adaptable in FS context. Because that isn't the point of the game.
:wtf: :wtf:
GTVA tech moves forward..obvioously....seriously that's one of hte ...lamest things I ever heard.
-
well for one thing GTVA tech while not as advanced in some areas is already better then the shivans tech in others!
Also who said they can not replicatre or improve shivan tech?? Anyone remember the Terran Mara it was better then the original ppl! So if they somehow got theyr hands on a shivan cruiser or corvette or even better a destroyer man oh man the shivans would be in for a huge nasty surprise in just a few years time!
-
*imagines a line of GTVD RavDemLucys*
-
just imagine The Beast (GTD Orion ) as i call it with shivan tech on it! I mean thats ownage! ;)) Or even better the sobek and the deimos with shivan beams ! Oh sweeeeet!
-
The GTVA has the advantage of adaptability. If they capture Shivan technology in its entirety, they can not only replicate it exactly, but also make significant improvements on it (SF Mara, Sekhmet, UD-8 Kayser), thereby closing the technological age gap almost instantly.
In FS1, technicians had serious problems with the captured Dragon. Beams are still primitive. There's no way the GTVA can "match" Shivan technology(expecially subspace technology). It can get closer...but it surely can't fill the gap.
I believe that Dragon was severely damaged when it was captured, thus it wasn't exactly 'in its entirety'. Who wants to bet if the GTVA capped an intact Dragon they would boost its armor/engines/shielding, make it compatible with Kaysers and turn it into a bomber's worst nightmare? (LOL at Alpha 1 flying a souped up SF Dragon...)
Better yet, if the GTVA captured a Lilith, they would have to capability to build LRed cannons and supporting reactors + heatsinks into their cruisers and up ;7 (then when they overdrive their beams they could pump out BFReds...or make reactors and heatsinks big enough to support BFReds full-time, like for a Colossus)
Unfortunately Shivan freighters are still better than GTVA ones, I made a FRED scenario to check it out :/ But you can't win everything right?
-
No, capturing something doesn't mean being able to replicate it.
What if WWI factions obtained data regarding(or captured) an F-22? Do you think they would have been able to build F-22s? No!
-
No, capturing something doesn't mean being able to replicate it.
What if WWI factions obtained data regarding(or captured) an F-22? Do you think they would have been able to build F-22s? No!
*cough (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/)*
Anyway, it would have allowed them to reach the stage where they could build F-22s much faster.
-
Meh...an American style film? :wtf:
No, thanks.
Anyway, it would have allowed them to reach the stage where they could build F-22s much faster.
:yes:
-
Roger that it would mean that they would be able to build f 22 like what a few decades ahead of its time? And if that is the case then imgine the more advanced fighterdeigns that would of been in place today! I cant even begin to imagine!
-
But that's impossible.
-
No, capturing something doesn't mean being able to replicate it.
What if WWI factions obtained data regarding(or captured) an F-22? Do you think they would have been able to build F-22s? No!
Not immediately, but given time they would (they'd have to figure out the fundamental stuff, like computing, metallurgy, engineering and physics...etc., before moving to the technicals - building machines, devices to build the little stuff to make the tiny components of the jet), the only question is how long would it take? If they somehow got their hands on an F-22 back during WW1, no doubt its completion would be at an earlier date than our current timeline. It just might take 30-40 years for them to do.
But we are talking about the GTVA here. So, let's see what they need to first replicate a LRed:
knowledge of the beam: wavelengths/frequencies to produce beam. Energy requirements & heat loss/efficiencies. Easy enough to study if you have a captured LRed-firing ship.
sufficiently powerful energy source: Shivans have high energy crystals (for example the stuff in those Shivan comm nodes, cause massive explosion on destruction). Fair to assume these can be used to power those beams (or capture Shivan reactors and take those apart), so the GTVA just needs to figure out how to produce their own (by analyzing atomic & molecular structures, behaviours under various conditions) or salvage Shivan debris/steal their cargo.
Strong heatsinks: This is fairly straight-forward, all Shivan beams are projected from red/black beam tips, the materials of which are easy to acquire from Shivan debris/wreckage. Again, analyze material composition and replicate (difficulty will vary depending on how complex the molecular compound is, rarity of material doesn't seem likely if the Shivans could have armadas of that size).
Do feel free to point out any weaknesses in my thinking, I need the exercise before I start university again this September :)
-
Actuali you are right! Also I belive that the GTVA managed to already overcome at least in part some of those dificulties! This is deduced from the fact they managde to reequip a shivan mara class fighter and improve it realatively fast! And this was done in a top secret instalation mind you!
With dedicated support from the GTVA on a large scale the GTVA would be able to replicate shivan tech realtively fast! Remember they already did so when they developed beams! The difference is they were kinda workind with rude scans as oposed to a real live working beam reactor etc. Which are far more elocvent when it comes to revleaing where you went wrong!
-
But they needed time to equip that Mara well. And do we know something about the cost of that operation? It might have been high. So, yes, the GTVA can do certain things...but it can't actually make the results of any kind of important research available to everyone. Is the Kayser the results of studies on Shivan technology? It's use is limited to the very best GTVA pilots.
-
But they needed time to equip that Mara well. And do we know something about the cost of that operation? It might have been high. So, yes, the GTVA can do certain things...but it can't actually make the results of any kind of important research available to everyone. Is the Kayser the results of studies on Shivan technology? It's use is limited to the very best GTVA pilots.
Yes, the Kayser is the result of research into Shivan weapon technology. It states so either in the tech database or during the command briefing where you are given official access to it, I can't remember which.
Remember the GTVA (well GTA and PVN) stole shielding tech + sensors off the Shivans, and they were able to mass produce it in relatively short order. Beam technology and subspace tech should also be replicable, at most within a few decades, as long as they have access to undamaged, fully functional specimens (I'm sure SOC has captured loads of Shivan cargo since their nebular campaign, some may be beam systems/reactors from those giant containers that the SFr Dis hauls).
-
The Dis carries low-value stuff. Supplies, I suppose. It can't be loaded with reactors and/or beam components.
Though the shield technology became accessible to everyone, weapon systems like the Kayser are still limited in production and diffusion.
-
But they needed time to equip that Mara well. And do we know something about the cost of that operation? It might have been high. So, yes, the GTVA can do certain things...but it can't actually make the results of any kind of important research available to everyone. Is the Kayser the results of studies on Shivan technology? It's use is limited to the very best GTVA pilots.
Yes, the Kayser is the result of research into Shivan weapon technology. It states so either in the tech database or during the command briefing where you are given official access to it, I can't remember which.
Remember the GTVA (well GTA and PVN) stole shielding tech + sensors off the Shivans, and they were able to mass produce it in relatively short order. Beam technology and subspace tech should also be replicable, at most within a few decades, as long as they have access to undamaged, fully functional specimens (I'm sure SOC has captured loads of Shivan cargo since their nebular campaign, some may be beam systems/reactors from those giant containers that the SFr Dis hauls).
IIRC, the GTA already had research done on shielding before the Shivans appeared. Regarding sensors, it was basically a way to detect Shivan ships, nothing more.
-
IIRC, the GTA already had research done on shielding before the Shivans appeared. Regarding sensors, it was basically a way to detect Shivan ships, nothing more.
Where did you get that info from? :wtf:
-
its in the Fashion in fs1 iirc
-
If I remember correctly the only way that the Mara was modified was that it was changed to support human pilots and carry human weaponry.
The GTVA doesn't always improve on shivan tech just look at shivan anti cap beams for proof. From flying the Mara we can clearly see that shivan fighters are still plenty leaps and bound better than human fighters.
-
its in the Fashion in fs1 iirc
:wtf:
Was it refering to...energy shields or...better armor plating?
If I remember correctly the only way that the Mara was modified was that it was changed to support human pilots and carry human weaponry.
The GTVA doesn't always improve on shivan tech just look at shivan anti cap beams for proof. From flying the Mara we can clearly see that shivan fighters are still plenty leaps and bound better than human fighters.
So true. Maybe, the captured Mara handles better because Shivans are big and modifying the fighter so that a Terran could pilot it meant improving some systems(more electronics and stuff like that).
-
shields
-
It had good shields IIRC.
-
what are you smoking there? those shivan fighters were like so easy to kill when i was lfyyng the mara as oposed to the herc or perseus for that matter! Also the tech briefing says they imporved it to handle even better or something then the original!
-
You have to be playing on easy dude...
They also improved the shields.
-
Link, please!
-
You mean the ship?There is a Terran Mara in FRED2.No mods involved.
-
actualy i finished the game on normal it was rather hard but those shivana maras were to me easier to fend off then before! but then again it can be just mi imagination!
-
You mean the ship?There is a Terran Mara in FRED2.No mods involved.
No, no...a link to that FS1 thing about Pre-Grear War shields!!!
-
The Dis carries low-value stuff. Supplies, I suppose. It can't be loaded with reactors and/or beam components.
:wtf: Where did that come from???
-
actualy i finished the game on normal it was rather hard but those shivana maras were to me easier to fend off then before! but then again it can be just mi imagination!
You had Keysers....and s***load of Harpoons in that missions... 4 gun poitns and a large secondary capacity.. With that loadout of course it's easy to kill Maras. Still I find Ares to be the most kick-ass fighter in FS2 :nod:
-
In the race to build the better fightercraft, the GTVA appears to be winning. They also seem to be pursuing their objectives in a more coherent fashion, or simply have more coherent objectives.
-
The Dis carries low-value stuff. Supplies, I suppose. It can't be loaded with reactors and/or beam components.
Though the shield technology became accessible to everyone, weapon systems like the Kayser are still limited in production and diffusion.
The Dis is the only Shivan freighter that hauls around that massive cargo container. Size is about right for larger components like reactors and replacement beam batteries (or their parts). Still, you may be right about the low-value part since those crates wreck easily. But I'm quite sure SOC has their hands on other Shivan cargo too (they've captured SC 3, SAC, SC 5 containers, one's bound to have some nice stuff, but we don't know since it's level Omega classified...).
Oh, the SF Mara (terrans) is better than the original. Not only does it say so in the SOC mission briefing for it, the armor and shielding values are greater (mainly armor), and its afterburn top speed is slightly better. Check the Freespace Wiki on this site, it shows it.
-
Oh, the SF Mara (terrans) is better than the original. Not only does it say so in the SOC mission briefing for it, the armor and shielding values are greater (mainly armor), and its afterburn top speed is slightly better. Check the Freespace Wiki on this site, it shows it.
Thats something I have never understood.
The SF Mara (terrans) has Very Heavy Armor AND Excellent maneuverability.
PLUS, they can sustain dual-Kaysers...
Maybe that means future GTVA ships will be copying that design?
I mean, the SF Mara would be the ultimate fighter if it supported more weapons...
-
well lets just say there is still alot of room for improvemenet!
The GTVA has just started to incorporate some of the shivans tech into its own! The ares is one such thing! That thing is so sweeeeet! I like it too TMan but then again i like the mara even better! The first time i finished the game i was like why on earth would i pick a shivan fighter i mean i'l get shot down by my own ppl! Never actualy read the briefing!
-
From flying the Mara we can clearly see that shivan fighters are still plenty leaps and bound better than human fighters.
The GTVA got the Mara how many missions before the end of the campaign? Let's say three to five weeks before, to simplify things. First off, they probably only had time to get the basics to convert it to terran use. Then they had to send them on a scuicide mission into the Lion's Den. They only get two back, and they are considerably damaged. Do you really think they are going to be able to get the same information out of it as a mint condition Mara? And anyways, let's say the do get good info from it, and design a crazy ass fighter with the info. Are they going to be able to design and produce that fighter in the few weeks they have left before the end of the game? No. Any change in the GTVA's fighter line-up will take place well after the main FS2 campaign.
-
That is if they can reproduce the technology on the Maras. Let's not forget that the four Maras were stolen and modified, they weren't produced from scratch.
-
From flying the Mara we can clearly see that shivan fighters are still plenty leaps and bound better than human fighters.
The GTVA got the Mara how many missions before the end of the campaign? Let's say three to five weeks before, to simplify things. First off, they probably only had time to get the basics to convert it to terran use. Then they had to send them on a scuicide mission into the Lion's Den. They only get two back, and they are considerably damaged. Do you really think they are going to be able to get the same information out of it as a mint condition Mara? And anyways, let's say the do get good info from it, and design a crazy ass fighter with the info. Are they going to be able to design and produce that fighter in the few weeks they have left before the end of the game? No. Any change in the GTVA's fighter line-up will take place well after the main FS2 campaign.
I agree, many major changes/improvements will take place post-Capella, but they will be ready to fight off a third Shivan encounter with the total advancements (better beam cannons, ships, fighters/bombers + their weaponry..etc. maybe make stealth bombers or cloaking devices?).
Reproducing the Shivan technology shouldn't be hard, all you have to do is figure out the molecular composition of the hull parts and subsystems. Easy to do with all the debris you made shooting them down + SOC captured Shivan cargo.
I thought Alpha 2 (Snipes' Mara) was invulnerable? Alpha 3 and 4 were guardianed, or is this variable dependent on difficulty setting?
-
Shivans seem to have much more powerful reactors...were any Shivan capital ships ever definitively captured and analyzed? I know that the Taranis was captured, but was destroyed at Tombaugh.
If Hall Fight is canonical, then an Azrael was also captured, but the boarding party was slaughtered. Depending on when Antares fell, that may have come to nothing as well.
Anyhow, the weaponry on the SC Lilith is a pretty good indicator of their reactor tech...LRed on a cruiser? Along with Shivan AF beams and, IIRC, a pretty good speed, that far outranks any Terran ship.
-
Shivans seem to have much more powerful reactors...were any Shivan capital ships ever definitively captured and analyzed? I know that the Taranis was captured, but was destroyed at Tombaugh.
If Hall Fight is canonical, then an Azrael was also captured, but the boarding party was slaughtered. Depending on when Antares fell, that may have come to nothing as well.
Anyhow, the weaponry on the SC Lilith is a pretty good indicator of their reactor tech...LRed on a cruiser? Along with Shivan AF beams and, IIRC, a pretty good speed, that far outranks any Terran ship.
I definitely agree with you there. What I want to know is, how exactly did SOC forces capture those SF Maras near the beginning? The fact that they were in decent enough condition to modify for Terrans and improve upon it means they didn't damage them, so they either stole them from those large Shivan cargo containers, or what I think happened, was they successfully captured a Shivan warship which carried those fighters and hauled them back.
If they boarded a Shivan warship successfully for those Maras, then what class of warship does SOC have in its possession? My guess is a Moloch, but when we talk SOC, Ravanas or Demon-class destroyers aren't impossible :cool: Which would mean, in a few years, hello GTVA LReds and BFReds!
-
Or maybe a few SoC operatives disabled the engines and weapons system of a Mara wing and towed them back to a Destroyer or something.
-
Shivans seem to have much more powerful reactors...were any Shivan capital ships ever definitively captured and analyzed? I know that the Taranis was captured, but was destroyed at Tombaugh.
If Hall Fight is canonical, then an Azrael was also captured, but the boarding party was slaughtered. Depending on when Antares fell, that may have come to nothing as well.
Anyhow, the weaponry on the SC Lilith is a pretty good indicator of their reactor tech...LRed on a cruiser? Along with Shivan AF beams and, IIRC, a pretty good speed, that far outranks any Terran ship.
I definitely agree with you there. What I want to know is, how exactly did SOC forces capture those SF Maras near the beginning? The fact that they were in decent enough condition to modify for Terrans and improve upon it means they didn't damage them, so they either stole them from those large Shivan cargo containers, or what I think happened, was they successfully captured a Shivan warship which carried those fighters and hauled them back.
If they boarded a Shivan warship successfully for those Maras, then what class of warship does SOC have in its possession? My guess is a Moloch, but when we talk SOC, Ravanas or Demon-class destroyers aren't impossible :cool: Which would mean, in a few years, hello GTVA LReds and BFReds!
Or they did what the player did in FS1 with the Dragon.
-
Shivans seem to have much more powerful reactors...were any Shivan capital ships ever definitively captured and analyzed? I know that the Taranis was captured, but was destroyed at Tombaugh.
If Hall Fight is canonical, then an Azrael was also captured, but the boarding party was slaughtered. Depending on when Antares fell, that may have come to nothing as well.
Anyhow, the weaponry on the SC Lilith is a pretty good indicator of their reactor tech...LRed on a cruiser? Along with Shivan AF beams and, IIRC, a pretty good speed, that far outranks any Terran ship.
I definitely agree with you there. What I want to know is, how exactly did SOC forces capture those SF Maras near the beginning? The fact that they were in decent enough condition to modify for Terrans and improve upon it means they didn't damage them, so they either stole them from those large Shivan cargo containers, or what I think happened, was they successfully captured a Shivan warship which carried those fighters and hauled them back.
If they boarded a Shivan warship successfully for those Maras, then what class of warship does SOC have in its possession? My guess is a Moloch, but when we talk SOC, Ravanas or Demon-class destroyers aren't impossible :cool: Which would mean, in a few years, hello GTVA LReds and BFReds!
Or they did what the player did in FS1 with the Dragon.
The Dragon captured in FS1 was severely damaged and didn't function well, thus handled worse than the original. The Maras were made better than the original, which suggests they didn't damage/disable it. These kinds of captures usually mean they either captured them while they were shipped in those giant cargo containers, or captured by boarding a Shivan warship (Moloch, Ravana, Demon). SOC has the skills and equipment to do so, after all 32 years is plenty of time to make hand-held weaponry that can 1-shot a Shivan right?
-
No.
To give us a fighting chance, our unit will fly a wing of Shivan fighters SOC forces captured early in the nebula campaign.
I highly doubt that the GTVA could capture a shivan warship capable of housing fighters. Even more so in the nebula. Even more so early in the campaign. They most likely captured it like the Dragon was captured in FS1. The Dragon in FS1 had a faulty drive because the GTA had dificulty modifying the ship, which didn't seem to be a problem with the Maras.
-
Well the player was only supposed to disable it with a disruptor. I think the problems were caused by the GTA's complete lack of valid informations regarding Shivan craft.
-
You mean the ship?There is a Terran Mara in FRED2.No mods involved.
No, no...a link to that FS1 thing about Pre-Grear War shields!!!
The Bastion has shields protecting the hangar bay in FS1.
Look at the main menu background.
They couldnt have put shields there so quickly.
-
Well the player was only supposed to disable it with a disruptor. I think the problems were caused by the GTA's complete lack of valid informations regarding Shivan craft.
Quite right, don't forget they had 32 years to study the dragon and any other derelict craft, the freighter from hallfight.mve springs to mind too...
-
Quite right, don't forget they had 32 years to study the dragon and any other derelict craft, the freighter from hallfight.mve springs to mind too...
:yes:
The Bastion has shields protecting the hangar bay in FS1.
Look at the main menu background.
They couldnt have put shields there so quickly.
Is that canon or pseudo canon? Or just a simple misunderstanding?
-
No.
To give us a fighting chance, our unit will fly a wing of Shivan fighters SOC forces captured early in the nebula campaign.
I highly doubt that the GTVA could capture a shivan warship capable of housing fighters. Even more so in the nebula. Even more so early in the campaign. They most likely captured it like the Dragon was captured in FS1. The Dragon in FS1 had a faulty drive because the GTA had dificulty modifying the ship, which didn't seem to be a problem with the Maras.
I agree, regular GTVA forces wouldn't have a chance to steal a Shivan warship with fighterbays. SOC, on the other hand, I can see having a good chance with all the elite personnel and classified advanced hardware (they had Erinyes +Kaysers in that 1st SOC loop) to pull off such a stunt.
I mean, c'mon, its SOC we're talking about! They don't operate or take orders from Command :cool:
-
I see, I guess Command should have sent the SOC against the Ravana instead of losing a destroyer and damaging several warships in the process before they finally destroyed the Ravana. Or the Moloch that almost destroyed the Aquitaine. :rolleyes:
Just because it's SOC doesn't mean they're invencible/can do anything. Capturing a shivan warship capable of housing fighters, early in the campaign, inside the nebula is impossible.
-
I see, I guess Command should have sent the SOC against the Ravana instead of losing a destroyer and damaging several warships in the process before they finally destroyed the Ravana. Or the Moloch that almost destroyed the Aquitaine. :rolleyes:
Just because it's SOC doesn't mean they're invencible/can do anything. Capturing a shivan warship capable of housing fighters, early in the campaign, inside the nebula is impossible.
Command doesn't have control over SOC operations, thus they sent in the regulars and hit smacked around. The GTVI is the one who bosses around SOC.
Well let's see the SOC's accomplishments:
Hijacked a NTF transport carrying top-secret ETAK stuff, taking down several Aeolus cruisers and NTF Herc 2 fighter wings by calling in Erinyes fighters, an AWACs and a Deimos (all done DEEP in enemy lines mind you), then turning the officers of the NTCv Sevrin into scapegoats and had them executed :lol:
Stole a wing of Maras from somewhere in the nebula, date, location and method unknown.
Rescued Lt. Cmdr. Snipes in heavy EM nebula against a significant Shivan presence.
Flew a suicide mission of 4 upgraded SF Maras and attacked Shivans in their territory without backup (well I always managed to kill the 3 Rakshasas, 3 Comm nodes and all fighter/bomber wings, then damage the Nebiros for a bit).
There's definitely more to the list, but we aren't aware of it.
Besides Alpha 1, SOC are the other guys who make the impossible, possible :nod:
-
I love SOC. It's always a pleasure to fly with them. Especially their attitudes. They are truly some of the best pilots out there.
-
the SOC kinda reminds me of HLP...
-
One yeah the other major GTVA advantage I forgot to add: The GTVA has SOC ;)
I mean Alpha 1 rocks but he/she is just an individual, while SOC is a large number of Alpha 1's who can do just about anything :lol:
The other advantage SOC get is that Command can't order them around, only GTVI can :cool:
-
the same GTVI that tried to overthrow the GTVA (who is worthless without one stinkin pilot)?
sounds like trouble for command if you ask me.
-
the same GTVI that tried to overthrow the GTVA (who is worthless without one stinkin pilot)?
sounds like trouble for command if you ask me.
That was GTI, 10 years before the GTVA was formed.
-
Reproducing the Shivan technology shouldn't be hard, all you have to do is figure out the molecular composition of the hull parts and subsystems. Easy to do with all the debris you made shooting them down + SOC captured Shivan cargo.
Just getting the molecular composition of something barely does anything, other than maybe you can figure out what their hull is made of and stuff like that. But for subsystems it would be useless. And your acting like you can just go into a debris field after a battle and find random subsystem lying around in relatively good condition. Yeah sure, you could find some stuff, but that would be very rare. After all, how many times have you killed an enemy fighter to have it not explode, just lie there derelict? And your acting like SOC has captured shivan craft in stores, just waiting to be handed out.
EDIT: And you guys are acting like capturing enemy vessels is a viable tactic. Think about it: in WWII what is the ratio of captured enemy vessels to sunk enemy vessels? It is a task a lot more difficult than you think, especially in Freespace. And what about the Shivans aboard, say a cruiser size vessel? I'd say there is at least a couple hundred. How difficult would it be to capture that?
-
If you send in the SOC pilots and SOC marines, I'd say it's quite feasible and a very good idea. My question is where did we get so much Shivan-based tech? SOC probably acquired 90% of it in off-the-books operations. Anyways--I think only the GTVI's SOC could really be effective at capturing ships.
-
if im right, disableing a cruiser would leave its reactor intact along with everything out, just short out [power relays topo the engine systems. and with a supposed 10 shivans on a freighter...that would be 30 on the cruiser shivans for the SOC to capture/kill before getting too the tech.
-
SOC is made of a small group of the most elite pilots, captains, and crewmen. We don't even know if there are SOC marines. I doubt they really have enough manpower to take over a Shivan capital ship. And even if they did, they would lose quite alot of men. I suspect there would be around 100 Shivans on a cruiser.
-
It would be around 70 I woulds say.
-
SOC is smart...tehy woudl send automated robot drones.... or would do like Zeff Brannigan and just "send wave after wave of men, till they (shivans) reach their programmed kill limit and shut down" :lol:
-
I love that show. :lol:
[ON topic] Does the GTVA have robots?They have Hordes of men. :P
-
SOC is smart...tehy woudl send automated robot drones.... or would do like Zeff Brannigan and just "send wave after wave of men, till they (shivans) reach their programmed kill limit and shut down" :lol:
Its Zapp Brannigan...
There are the Amazon Advanced bots.
Its proven that MY computer can simulate a GTVA pilot. Im sure a computer 300+ years in the future can do the same...
-
Definitely. They just need to tweak the AI a bit. I have no doubt that even their least-powerful computers are at least ten times faster and better then ours are.
Anyways--I'd say about 80 Shivans to a Cruiser. Other then that, I will say that the SOC has quite a few people. Consider the fact that they have been able to man a destroyer, not to mention the support ships, corvettes, and cruisers. I'd say they have quite an elite pool of pilots and their other ships are basically all seasoned vets. Even with barebones crews, they're the best.
-
Anyways--I'd say about 80 Shivans to a Cruiser. Other then that, I will say that the SOC has quite a few people. Consider the fact that they have been able to man a destroyer, not to mention the support ships, corvettes, and cruisers. I'd say they have quite an elite pool of pilots and their other ships are basically all seasoned vets. Even with barebones crews, they're the best.
Id have to agree, plus i'm sure that SOC can pretty much get help from GTVA any time that it wants.
-
Anyways--I'd say about 80 Shivans to a Cruiser. Other then that, I will say that the SOC has quite a few people. Consider the fact that they have been able to man a destroyer, not to mention the support ships, corvettes, and cruisers. I'd say they have quite an elite pool of pilots and their other ships are basically all seasoned vets. Even with barebones crews, they're the best.
Just out of curiosity, what destroyer? :wtf:
-
hes refering to inferno, when the SOC had grown some more.
-
:wtf:
Inferno is not canon.
-
excactly.
-
What'd i'd do with a shivan freighter if i were soc. Is force open the entry hatch in space, and send wave after wave of amazons to try to fit their way through that hatch.
-
IIRC, the GTA already had research done on shielding before the Shivans appeared. Regarding sensors, it was basically a way to detect Shivan ships, nothing more.
Where did you get that info from? :wtf:
Its loosely suggested in the FS1 Dev Bible. I would say generally speaking that it suggests that Terran scientists experimented with shield technology but couldn't make it work. Thus capturing the Shivan version allowed for a rapid breakthrough. Can be considered anywhere from canon to semi-canon depending on how far you read into it. Allegedly the research was being done on GTI Riviera which is the installation which is destroyed in the FS1 opening.
-
Agreed but then again the SOC tech eveolved a lot faster then the normal GTVA tech! This would mean they would manage to kill off shivans a lot easier and faster then in FS1! One shot one kill sort off! Also let us not forget shivans are not invulnerable! If they did manage to capture something like a Moloch then i supose that would explai the condition of those maras!
-
C'mon people, it's hardly possible that the SOC, by itself, would be able to board and capture a shivan ship. The SOC handles surgical strikes and covert operations, that together with the GTI rebellion means their numbers are probably few, the GTVA would be unlikely to allow that their intelligence arm (the GTVI) control a considerable force that may pose a threat if they decide to rebel. And if the SOC had that many people, first: they wouldnt be so much "secret" anymore, and second: they wouldnt be so elite anymore.
If the SOC wanted to make a boarding op, their only part on it would be planing it together with whoever would be in charge of the marines and disabling the ship, the GTVI would arrange the best marines they could and use them to board the ship.
Other then that, I will say that the SOC has quite a few people. Consider the fact that they have been able to man a destroyer, not to mention the support ships, corvettes, and cruisers. I'd say they have quite an elite pool of pilots and their other ships are basically all seasoned vets. Even with barebones crews, they're the best.
That's not canon, stick to the facts, please.
Why do people think Inferno is even canon to begin with? :rolleyes:
Agreed but then again the SOC tech eveolved a lot faster then the normal GTVA tech! This would mean they would manage to kill off shivans a lot easier and faster then in FS1! One shot one kill sort off! Also let us not forget shivans are not invulnerable! If they did manage to capture something like a Moloch then i supose that would explai the condition of those maras!
There is no such thing as SOC tech, it's the GTVA that develops the technology.
-
its only the SOC that tests it.
although i liek the idea of a SOC fleet, regardless of canon. they're the best, right? then they deserve more than a stinkin bitmap-medal.
-
hes refering to inferno, when the SOC had grown some more.
Actually no I'm not. I'm assuming that the GTI of old (with the GTD Hades) has the same or fewer people then the GTVI of new. Even the fact that they've used corvettes is an indication of numbers--I would assume that they could man a fleet with at least a single destroyer, several corvettes, and probably a handful of cruisers. They are likely to have more ships then they can really man, though they have those under GTVA control or skeleton crew.
Anyways--I'm not saying that the GTVI has 10,000 people, but it definitely has enough to have a substantial marine force.
EDIT: One thing--I've never played Inferno that much---I've gotten a few missions in, but nothing further. What I said is not based on Inferno--it's based on FS1:ST.
-
The GTVA has already captured Shivan cargo, remember the first mission to capture the Knossos portal from the Shivans? There's a bunch of crates with their freighters dropping off stuff.
Besides, SOC only needs to secure a Lilith-class cruiser for LReds and BFReds (by supersizing the technology). Capturing a Moloch will let it have access to intact fighters/bombers within its fighterbays.
Now, to pull off these kinds of operations, they need to have met certain criteria:
-the SOC needs to jam communications in the area so Shivan warships can't call for help (this is doable, since the GTA Hamako jammed NTF comms while you were doing the hijacking of the Sunder)
-have the weaponry to quickly disable and disarm the warship, and take out any fighter wings so they don't escape (also doable, SOC had Erinyes fighters with Kaysers, + Stilletto II's to bust up turrets and engines)
-have the troops and firepower to takeover the ship (I'd say SOC can pull this off too, we know the size and toughness of a Shivan, so the GTVA has had 32 years to develop weapons suited for killing Shivans quickly and efficiently, give these to SOC soldiers and they will wipe the corridors clean of Shivans)
-have some vessel able to haul away the disabled Shivan warship (an Argo transport or a Triton freighter should have sufficient power to carry a Lilith out for sure, might need 2 Tritons for a Moloch)
So you see it's not impossible, and if it's not impossible then SOC will pull it off. After all, SOC is known for doing suicide missions and coming back home successfully :nod:
-
er...the triton can only dock in-beteen its arms. an argo would be more suited (or a GTFr chronos, but they scrapped those)
-
Agreed! Also why do people believe the SOC and the GTVI to be that small??? they would have at least 1 fleet ! I mean when considering the size of the entire GTVA fleet 1 fleet is nothing !
also Whyle i belive the GTVI to have at least 1 fleet i do not believe the SOC would have such a ship at its disposal right away perhaps they make use of the GTVI destroyer that may be available to them! Also i believe the SOC to have mainly corvettes and cruisers ! However a poket size destroyer would not be such a bad idea for the SOC!
Even the GTVA has the tech and skilled pilots crews to capture a shivan warship! Rememeber it is not the ships that suck but rather the orders and tactics!
-
I highly doubt that the GTVA could capture a shivan warship capable of housing fighters. Even more so in the nebula. Even more so early in the campaign. They most likely captured it like the Dragon was captured in FS1. The Dragon in FS1 had a faulty drive because the GTA had dificulty modifying the ship, which didn't seem to be a problem with the Maras.
Beg differ, worth remembering that they at the very least captured one Shivan transport in FS1, transport implying high numbers of personnel aboard; more than a warship. There is implication that other Shivan ships were captured as well; we know that the original attempt to capture a Cain failed, but at least one command briefing implies that both Terran and Vasudan forces had made other captures in roughly the same timeframe, and as the war wound down following the destruction of the Lucifer it is probable more capture operations were attempted. It is entirely possible that the capture of a Shivan capital warship like a Demon has been attempted before, or even succeeded.
Given the difficulties experienced in boarding operations against Shivan ships before, it is also extremely probable the GTVA has developed some kind of specialized anti-Shivan weapons for its soldiers and marines in the event this is necessary again. While I doubt anything short a heavy grenade launcher firing a shaped charge (which is possibly what happened in Hallfight) or a shoulder-fired missile could bring down a Shivan with one shot, it's well within the realm of possiblity for the kinetic-kill weapons we saw in Hallfight to be refitted to fire a HEAT or shaped charge round that could probably punch through a Shivan carapace and hurt it, or kill it with several hits.
-
The GTVA has already captured Shivan cargo, remember the first mission to capture the Knossos portal from the Shivans? There's a bunch of crates with their freighters dropping off stuff.
Besides, SOC only needs to secure a Lilith-class cruiser for LReds and BFReds (by supersizing the technology).
Assuming we can reverse-engineer their technology, which isn't so simple as <insert technobabble> as you make it sound to be. Also, I assume beams are not just supersized versions of each other, otherwise there wouldn't be such a wide range of beams. Capturing a Moloch will let it have access to intact fighters/bombers within its fighterbays.
Now, to pull off these kinds of operations, they need to have met certain criteria:
-the SOC needs to jam communications in the area so Shivan warships can't call for help (this is doable, since the GTA Hamako jammed NTF comms while you were doing the hijacking of the Sunder)
I can't believe you are even suggesting this.
-have the weaponry to quickly disable and disarm the warship, and take out any fighter wings so they don't escape (also doable, SOC had Erinyes fighters with Kaysers, + Stilletto II's to bust up turrets and engines)
-have the troops and firepower to takeover the ship (I'd say SOC can pull this off too, we know the size and toughness of a Shivan, so the GTVA has had 32 years to develop weapons suited for killing Shivans quickly and efficiently, give these to SOC soldiers and they will wipe the corridors clean of Shivans)
Right, because we've had thousands of years of trying to kill each other and we still can kill other soldiers quickly and efficiently, especially when they've got technologic superiority :rolleyes:
-have some vessel able to haul away the disabled Shivan warship (an Argo transport or a Triton freighter should have sufficient power to carry a Lilith out for sure, might need 2 Tritons for a Moloch)
While the rest of the Shivan armada comes for whatever is trying to haul the warship.
So you see it's not impossible, and if it's not impossible then SOC will pull it off. After all, SOC is known for doing suicide missions and coming back home successfully :nod: It's impossible.
I highly doubt that the GTVA could capture a shivan warship capable of housing fighters. Even more so in the nebula. Even more so early in the campaign. They most likely captured it like the Dragon was captured in FS1. The Dragon in FS1 had a faulty drive because the GTA had dificulty modifying the ship, which didn't seem to be a problem with the Maras.
Beg differ, worth remembering that they at the very least captured one Shivan transport in FS1, transport implying high numbers of personnel aboard; more than a warship. There is implication that other Shivan ships were captured as well; we know that the original attempt to capture a Cain failed, but at least one command briefing implies that both Terran and Vasudan forces had made other captures in roughly the same timeframe, and as the war wound down following the destruction of the Lucifer it is probable more capture operations were attempted. It is entirely possible that the capture of a Shivan capital warship like a Demon has been attempted before, or even succeeded.
I know this is not exactly canon (FRED extended walkthrough), but it took the NTF two Argos transports full of marines to capture a destroyer with little crew. Now up the crew and make it Shivan. Does it still look likely?
Given the difficulties experienced in boarding operations against Shivan ships before, it is also extremely probable the GTVA has developed some kind of specialized anti-Shivan weapons for its soldiers and marines in the event this is necessary again. While I doubt anything short a heavy grenade launcher firing a shaped charge (which is possibly what happened in Hallfight) or a shoulder-fired missile could bring down a Shivan with one shot, it's well within the realm of possiblity for the kinetic-kill weapons we saw in Hallfight to be refitted to fire a HEAT or shaped charge round that could probably punch through a Shivan carapace and hurt it, or kill it with several hits.
While I'm at it, let me say just this. People are quick to say "But command uses terrible tactics!" or "If only command would equip ships with A,B, C and D." but they often forget that command makes these mistakes or ship configurations to highlight how powerful or how smart the enemy is. It's a classic case of hype by making the protagonist weak, basic storytelling. If you want to up the tactics or ship configuration and still make it believable you'd have to do the same for the Shivans.
-
Even the GTVA has the tech and skilled pilots crews to capture a shivan warship! Rememeber it is not the ships that suck but rather the orders and tactics!
lets say the SOC has a cruiser called the SOCr Dvalin, and every single weapon on it, antifighter or anticap, and even anti-electronic EMP, was a beam or phaser. would that be better than a GTVA ships with a few beams, some flak, and blobs? i'd say it would be perfectly suited for anything, and all you would need to turn it into a capture vessel is to modify the beams too only affect subsytems (and make them slash). even with terrible tactics, it would be alot easier to capture a shivan cruiser (or even corvette) than with a conventional GTVA warship. the only thing better suited would be fighters with akhetons and stillettos. even then, the only tactics needed are c-3-3 and c-3-2.
-
:rolleyes:
What if a destroyer, or even a cruiser jumps in?
-
Ghostavo, what problem do you see with jamming Shivan communications? I think it's a reasonable tactic, though if somehow it isn't then Pegasus stealth fighters + Stillettos (or Trebuchets, SOC probably had access to those way before the player does) could disable the comms and engines of a warship so Shivans can't call for assistance, while Erinyes wings take out Shivan fighter cover. Board Shivan vessel with an Argo (that's at least several hundred troops, if not thousands), plenty of firepower (remember SOC gets access to special/non-standard weaponry) and numbers to capture a corvette, let alone a cruiser like a Lilith.
As for beams not being bigger versions of each other, I'd somewhat disagree. SRed, LRed and BFRed are all the same energy type, thus the same colour (my guess is it's a laser), just each version has more energy inputted for the discharge.
SGreen, BGreen and BFGreen/LRBGreen are the same energy type too (plasma?), and this you can prove for certain since all the TerSlash and BGreens of the Colossus become LRBGreens when they overdrive the beam + reactors.
Vasudan beams are photon in nature, I believe they say so during the end of 'Surrender, Belisarius', which is why they have a yellow/golden colour. SVas, VSlash and BVas are just different configurations of that energy type.
32 years is plenty of time to research better weapons to kill Shivans, I mean in Hall Fight those chain/gatling guns brought down 1 of the Shivans (I'm pretty sure no one thought Shivans were going to be that big & cybernetic), and in the zero-G of space, a soldier should be able to carry around mini-Subachs/mini-Kaysers (though there may still be the issue of inertia...)
No Shivan armada's coming to save that warship SOC hauls off if that warship (or its dead fighter guards) can't send out that call for help, now can it?
-
Ghostavo, what problem do you see with jamming Shivan communications? Jamming the communications of someone using the same technology is one thing, but jamming the communications of someone who uses far superior technology? I think it's a reasonable tactic, though if somehow it isn't then Pegasus stealth fighters + Stillettos (or Trebuchets, SOC probably had access to those way before the player does) could disable the comms and engines of a warship so Shivans can't call for assistance, while Erinyes wings take out Shivan fighter cover. Board Shivan vessel with an Argo (that's at least several hundred troops, if not thousands), plenty of firepower (remember SOC gets access to special/non-standard weaponry) and numbers to capture a corvette, let alone a cruiser like a Lilith.
It would still need to happen before reinforcements arrive and in any case the casualties would be staggering, either on success or failure.
As for beams not being bigger versions of each other, I'd somewhat disagree. SRed, LRed and BFRed are all the same energy type, thus the same colour (my guess is it's a laser), just each version has more energy inputted for the discharge.
SGreen, BGreen and BFGreen/LRBGreen are the same energy type too (plasma?), and this you can prove for certain since all the TerSlash and BGreens of the Colossus become LRBGreens when they overdrive the beam + reactors.
Vasudan beams are photon in nature, I believe they say so during the end of 'Surrender, Belisarius', which is why they have a yellow/golden colour. SVas, VSlash and BVas are just different configurations of that energy type. First we don't know what the beams are exactly, second the LRBGreen only appear in that sole mission I believe, so all that means is that the LRBGreen is the overcharged version of those beams.
32 years is plenty of time to research better weapons to kill Shivans, I mean in Hall Fight those chain/gatling guns brought down 1 of the Shivans (I'm pretty sure no one thought Shivans were going to be that big & cybernetic), and in the zero-G of space, a soldier should be able to carry around mini-Subachs/mini-Kaysers (though there may still be the issue of inertia...) Again the example of humans. When fighting someone who has technological superiority (not to mention physical) casualties will always mount on the side which has less, and in this case it's definatly not the Shivans.
No Shivan armada's coming to save that warship SOC hauls off if that warship (or its dead fighter guards) can't send out that call for help, now can it? And how do you prevent them from doing that? :rolleyes:
-
The SF Mara (terrans) is not a modified ship. No matter what SOC command says.
The SF Mara (terrans) is a bit LONGER than the regular mara. Wtf?
-
The SF Mara (terrans) is not a modified ship. No matter what SOC command says.
The SF Mara (terrans) is a bit LONGER than the regular mara. Wtf?
They made it longer when they modified it perhaps? :rolleyes:
-
Shivans could care less they lose 1 or 2 ships. Just look at Capella, they lost at least 4 juggernauts, a Moloch and who knows how many of their forces.
Like I said, stopping the Shivans from calling for help is easy. A swarm of GTVA stealth fighters can take out the comm subsystem of said warship and all Shivan fighters within seconds, before they can react. Proceed to disable and disarm the warship within the next few seconds, before they know what hit them.
Boarding, probably will result in casualties, but a few hundred marines carrying hand-held Subachs/Prometheus/Kayser/Maxims should dispatch a Shivan quickly enough. That mounted Shivan cannon during Hall Fight appears to take a bit of time to charge up, so SOC teams should have sufficient time.
Besides, while this capture operation is in progress, GTVA forces can create major diversions elsewhere, so Shivan reinforcements are drawn away from the boarding op.
Shivans have superior technology (primarily subspace and beams) but it's not THAT far ahead of the GTVA. The primary advantage going for the Shivans is NUMBERS. The GTVA can catch up technologically within a reasonable timeframe, but to match them in numbers is impossible.
The S/B/BF beams I've already given a logical explanation with some canon evidence, if you still don't get it, let me know what you are having troubles with, or if you have a better idea I'd love to hear it :)
-
Taking out the shivans comm systems in the event of capturing a vessel, or just to sneak your ships past it happens a couple of times in fs1. It's a reasonable and awesome tactic. When the shivans comm systems are down, the shivans can't call for reinforcement. First thing to do to capture a shivan vessel is take out it's comm system, then disable it, then take perform de-turreting.
The only next thing you have to fear is the shivans on the inside of the ship.
-
:rolleyes:
What if a destroyer, or even a cruiser jumps in?
then its instantly disabled and disarmed if its hostile. nuff said.
-
Why do some people here believe shivans are all knowing all powerfull gods??? Well i actualy don care but let me just say this THEY ARE NOT INVINCIBLE! They can be killed they can be hurt just like any other GTVA ship out there! They have numbers that is all that is theyr single greatest advantage! Numbers! Its not the subspace tech or the beam tech its numbers!
Capturing a shivan vessel at this point in time using SOC or GTVI soldiers would pe a peace of cake compared to FS1 timetable when they really did not know what to expect!
OF course there would be casualties heavy casualties that is why i was saing use god damn GTVA marines some elite batalion or something! So you loose 3 men for every shivan you kill ! Lets asume there are about 1000 shivans on a cruiser 5 or 6k on a corvette and 10.000 on a destroyer that would mean you would stand to lose depending on what ship you were after between 3000 and 30.000 soldiers per captured shis in the begining! This is asuming you actualy have that many casualties! Who gives a crap???
30k marines for 1 shivan destroyer....i say go for it! They had no problem in landing 600k marines to secure Deneb i believe and you can rest asured the casualties there were a lot higher!
Hell I will be willing to sacrifice even 1.000.000 marines if it gets me a couple of destroyers some corvettes and a buch of cruiser and at least 1 jugg! The point is GTVA is willing to sacrifice a lot of soldiers to get something really big! And a whole shivan fleet or a cruiser or corvette or destroyer is something pretty big! The tech captured would be like a gold mine! And if that is what it takes to ensure the survival of the GTVA then so be it!
If the GTVA got their hands on one of those BFReds who is willing to bet me that they reverse engenier it and produce a more powerfull version of it within a maximum of 3-5 years time???
-
Wow AlphaOne. You are just like Zapp Brannigan. Waves after waves of men till the enemy is finally defeated. How do we not know if the Shivans will just self destruct the ship and kill all the "elite" marines boarding the ship? Now the GTVA has just many lost of their best trained men on an attempt to capture a Shivan vessel.
Also, I'm pretty sure SOC doesn't have a destroyer. SOC is comparable to the US's Delta Force. They operate in high risk missions that involves making very little or no mistakes at all. Most of these missions would probably be some covert operations. GTVA on the other hand are responsible for the large and massive battles. They are entrusted with protecting the populace while SOC are responsible for intelligence gathering. I am pretty sure SOC will often use GTVA resources but hold no such fleet of their own besides a few corvettes and cruisers.
-
Never said they had ijust said the GTVI will most definetly have such a large warship which the SOC would make use if they needed!
also considering the huge prize at stake here I will be willing to sacrifice at least 5000 marines to capture a shivan Lilith class cruiser! Hell i'l sacrifice 200k to get mi hands on one of those juggs! That is if they do not self destruct them!
But then again the shivans could of done so when the cain cruiser was captured!
If casualties were high then well their casualties of war! Its not like you have to do this evey single day! just one of those lilith or moloch corvettes or even a shivan destroyer man oh man! Such a prize!
I'm not ttalking about the ship itself since i consider shivan warships to be crap compared to the GTVA ones i'm talking about the beam canons on them and they fighter/bommber compliment if the ship in question has any!
Also i do remember ww2 history a bit and the outrageus number of casualties ! Or ww1 and those outrageus number of casualties!
And we were bnot even fighting for out survival as a species! We were just fighting over a god damn pieces of land! A small one at that!
-
Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.
-
Shivans don't seem to bother with self-destruct, otherwise the Antares freighter and SC Taranis would've done so.
Besides, SHIVANS are the species that takes the Zapp Brannigan approach. They've got enough fighters, bombers, warships and juggernauts to pull it off. It was also very Zapp Brannigan of them to instigate the Capella supernova :lol:
As for SOC, they won't throw lives needlessly like the regular GTVA Command. They operate with precision, hitting hard and fast before any effective resistance can be organized against them, then vanishing like ghosts. So capturing smaller Shivan warships is well within their abilities, as they have at least enough crew to man a Deimos (GTCv Naxos), an AWACS (GTA Hamako), and several fighter wings. I'd say SOC probably has at least 10,000 personnel, combat and non-combat types, if not more. Don't forget that there was a spec ops team that was fully prepared to board the Iceni and retrive ETAK + Bosch.
Remember, the GTVA 6th fleet lost 80,000 men or 75% of their remaining forces, plus you have to remember GTVA 6th Fleet's Admiral Aken Bosch took a large size of the original battle group when he started that NTF rebellion.
My point is that each fleet is massive with probably around 200,000 officers and crew, so SOC should be capable of at least fielding a small percentage of that.
-
Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.
Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!
-
Remember, the GTVA 6th fleet lost 80,000 men or 75% of their remaining forces, plus you have to remember GTVA 6th Fleet's Admiral Aken Bosch took a large size of the original battle group when he started that NTF rebellion.
What was fleets 1-5 and 7+ doing during the Shivan incursion?
-
Most of the other Terran fleets and Vasudan battle groups were probably on high alert in their home systems, in case the Shivans surprise attack on a second front (remember, Shivans have way better subspace technologies than the GTVA, this much is no argument) or act as reserve forces for emergency deployment (my opinion, you decide for yourself if you agree or not). The 13th Vasudan battle group and the Terran 3rd fleet were the main ones responsible for dealing with Capella/Gamma Draconis/nebula, though the other nearest fleets may have sent some of their ships to assist.
As for Shivan technology, beams are maybe one or two levels ahead of the GTVA, a gap that is easily closed if the GTVA gets its hands on a copy (reverse-engineering when you already have the fundamentals principles down isn't hard, since its just a matter of refinement). Subspace on the other hand may need much longer to match (Shivans can use unstable nodes and power up subspace weaponry to cause supernovas, which the GTVA doesn't have a clue how they do so).
On another matter, Demon-class destroyers are a bit of a pain to deal with, its LRed beam batteries take 6 Trebuchets to knock out, and cover the sides and forward, which can quickly rip a corvette to shreds if you don't act fast (GVCv Thebes vs. SD Beleth in 'Bearbaiting'). Though the most compact form of Shivan-made trouble comes in Lilith-package. How the heck do they fit a LRed on something the size of a Cain (which takes 3 Trebuchets to knockout too), upgrade its hull plating almost 4 times, and let it keep a decent top speed? I'm quite sure the GTVI wants/wanted that 'comprehensive data' regarding the technicals of that Shivan cruiser, so SOC must've tried to secure one for research purposes.
-
Remember, the GTVA 6th fleet lost 80,000 men or 75% of their remaining forces, plus you have to remember GTVA 6th Fleet's Admiral Aken Bosch took a large size of the original battle group when he started that NTF rebellion.
My point is that each fleet is massive with probably around 200,000 officers and crew, so SOC should be capable of at least fielding a small percentage of that.
proof? From what ive seen each fleet at most consists of 2 destroyers 1-3 Corvettes and 2-4 Cruisers at best thats about 50k soldiers.
Most of the other Terran fleets and Vasudan battle groups were probably on high alert in their home systems, in case the Shivans surprise attack on a second front (remember, Shivans have way better subspace technologies than the GTVA, this much is no argument) or act as reserve forces for emergency deployment (my opinion, you decide for yourself if you agree or not). The 13th Vasudan battle group and the Terran 3rd fleet were the main ones responsible for dealing with Capella/Gamma Draconis/nebula, though the other nearest fleets may have sent some of their ships to assist.
Proof? I refuse to believe that the GTVA only sent 3-4 fleets to try to stop the second shivan incursion. The entire survival of both the Humans and the Vasudans was on the line. If I were in that situation I would send every single ship capable of combat in. And I'M NOT saying that the entire GTVA armada was in Capella or Gamma Draconis, but you can be sure that there was a pretty SIZABLE force beyond Capella that was waiting and re-enforcing the frontline troops.
-
Well if you think about, the Shivan ships are designed to be offensive because they ARE on the offensive. I haven't seen the Shivans defend anything. They have almost nothing to defend aside from a few cargo deports. For all we know, the Shivans may have designed defensive and offensive fleets. Each fleet uses its own type of ships thats better suited for their goal.
-
The part about the GTVA 6th fleet casualties is true enough, its in the command briefing for the mission to defend ENIF station, and the Intel on the NTF in the tech database talks about how 6th fleet Admiral Bosch rebelled and took a sizeable chunk of the fleet for his NTF, and he's got at least 8 destroyers (NTD Jacobus, NTD Normandy, NTD Repulse, NTD Andronicus, NTD Cyrene, NTD Vasa, NTD Uhuru, NTD Vindicator) under his command, a bunch of corvettes (NTCv Belisarius, NTCv Hawkwood, NTCv Sevrin, NTCv Jacquerie, NTCv An Luchan, NTCv Pax, NTCv Perseverance, NTCv Yo****omo, NTCv Congreve, NTCv Danton, may have been more) and countless cruisers. Let's not forget, this war had been ongoing for 18 months so there had been losses on both sides (cruiser/corvette replacements I can see, don't know how Bosch could build a destroyer in that kind of short timeframe though...)
As for how many fleets were helping fight Shivans, I stated that it was my opinion. 2 fleets, the Terran 3rd Fleet and the 13th Vasudan Battle Group I know were at the frontlines against the Shivans, any other fleets I'm not sure of. If each system had at least 1 Arcadia with full fighter complement, then it is possible all the fleets got mobilized to Capella/Vega/Epsilon Pegasi to assist. Like I said, this much I'm as much in the dark as you are :rolleyes:
-
Proof you are a lauzy tactician and trategist thats what you gave me! Sure why not send in all the fleet to get butchered by those shivan juggs which you can barely put a scrathc on them with a destroyer in one salvo! Sure...! What reason would they have to send most of the GTVA forces to engage 80+ juggs when they have a much much much better chance of inflicting heavy damage to the shivans by setting up a blocade! And whyle the GTVA would of been hard pressed to keep that blocade in place they would of most definbetely take such a measure!
Or even better just blow the damn nodes so the shivans cant make use of them! Also there is no limit to the size of a fleet ! While most fleets i agree have but 1-2 destroyers they would have at least 2-6 corvettes and at least double that amount of cruisers! Also do not forget that some fleets while they may hove just one destroyer others might have 3 or more depending on the circumstances !
So it is very posible for a GTVA fleet to have up to 200k people or more ! Couple that with the number of fleets availabe to the GTVA pre NTF rebelion which IMO would be about 26 total 13 for the vasudans and 13 for the terrans! Now figure out how many people are involved!
-
Besides, SHIVANS are the species that takes the Zapp Brannigan approach. They've got enough fighters, bombers, warships and juggernauts to pull it off. It was also very Zapp Brannigan of them to instigate the Capella supernova :lol:
but of course! He is their leader! It all makes sense now! :eek:
-
Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.
Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!
Their design is weak? You mean the design that Command tells you we needed to use to stand a fighting chance against them?
-
Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.
What have you been smoking?? where on earth does it say that the GTVA neds to use shivan designed warships ?? Please Show me!
Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!
Their design is weak? You mean the design that Command tells you we needed to use to stand a fighting chance against them?
-
Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.
What have you been smoking?? where on earth does it say that the GTVA neds to use shivan designed warships ?? Please Show me!
Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!
Their design is weak? You mean the design that Command tells you we needed to use to stand a fighting chance against them?
I thought you were talking about fighters, but if you are talking about bigger classes, it is even worse. Beam technology is part of ship design, either you like it or not. What you are doing is criticising them for using their advantages. Namely placing their beams in an offensive coverage.
Like Gamma Draconis said, one on one Shivan ships are better than their counterparts.
-
one on one shivan ships are better then they conterpart in an ofensive battle which is of course what the shivans seem to do most of the times! Yet they have crappy aaaf defences crappy beam coverage! i'm not criticizing them for they uber beams i'm simply pointing out the huge design weaknesses they have! alse the weaponry of a ship is not part of a ship design since well neyther the cain or the lilith for that matter or even demon class warships had any beam weapons to speak of in theyr original state! they were refited! So your arguemnet goes off the window!
-
one on one shivan ships are better then they conterpart in an ofensive battle which is of course what the shivans seem to do most of the times! Yet they have crappy aaaf defences crappy beam coverage! i'm not criticizing them for they uber beams i'm simply pointing out the huge design weaknesses they have! alse the weaponry of a ship is not part of a ship design since well neyther the cain or the lilith for that matter or even demon class warships had any beam weapons to speak of in theyr original state! they were refited! So your arguemnet goes off the window!
If Shivans don't need defensive ships then why are you even bothering to point that out? They need offensive ships, they have offensive ships. Is there any hidden logic here?
Also, shall I point out the Orion's original design? Weapon configuration is part of their design!
-
I thought you were talking about fighters, but if you are talking about bigger classes, it is even worse. Beam technology is part of ship design, either you like it or not. What you are doing is criticising them for using their advantages. Namely placing their beams in an offensive coverage.
Like Gamma Draconis said, one on one Shivan ships are better than their counterparts.
The only Shivan warship I see as below Shivan 'standards' is the Moloch. It doesn't have AAA beams, and its anti-cap weapons are SReds. Compared with the GTVA corvettes, it sucks and defending against fighters and bombers, and in a broadside against a Deimos it gets subsystems and turrets chewed up.
Fighters, well the GTVA one for one have better fighters (they have balanced shielding AND armor, so an AAA beam doesn't skewer them in one go), and they now have those Erinyes (grinds fighters/bombers with Kaysers, grinds ships with Maxims). A Pegasus is about the equivalent of a Dragon, plus the Dragon can't get aspect lock on the stealth fighter (they don't have the TAG technology to do so), if that Peggy sneaks up on a Shivan wing it can fire of a pair of Harpoons at each and blow 'em away by the time the Shivans know what's happening.
-
If weapons are part of ship design, you could say the same for fighter complements..allmost...
GTVA ships pwn shivns in that case
-
I thought you were talking about fighters, but if you are talking about bigger classes, it is even worse. Beam technology is part of ship design, either you like it or not. What you are doing is criticising them for using their advantages. Namely placing their beams in an offensive coverage.
Like Gamma Draconis said, one on one Shivan ships are better than their counterparts.
The only Shivan warship I see as below Shivan 'standards' is the Moloch. It doesn't have AAA beams, and its anti-cap weapons are SReds. Compared with the GTVA corvettes, it sucks and defending against fighters and bombers, and in a broadside against a Deimos it gets subsystems and turrets chewed up.
Fighters, well the GTVA one for one have better fighters (they have balanced shielding AND armor, so an AAA beam doesn't skewer them in one go), and they now have those Erinyes (grinds fighters/bombers with Kaysers, grinds ships with Maxims). A Pegasus is about the equivalent of a Dragon, plus the Dragon can't get aspect lock on the stealth fighter (they don't have the TAG technology to do so), if that Peggy sneaks up on a Shivan wing it can fire of a pair of Harpoons at each and blow 'em away by the time the Shivans know what's happening.
The Moloch is the only thing I may agree with you. But on the other hand it has a fighterbay and almost destroyed the Aquitaine.
Regarding fighters, the Mara seems to be leaps and bounds above any other fighter. Also Shivan ships seem to have better shields than Terran. And seeing that the Kayser was inspired by Shivan weapons...
Finally, we don't know how a stealth ship fares in battle against the shivans since they were all used as scouts. For all we know as soon as it starts firing the Shivans can get a lock on it.
If weapons are part of ship design, you could say the same for fighter complements..allmost...
In a way yes. On the other hand it's slightly diferent since they change their fighter complement with each sortie.
And Shivan ships continue to have the upper hand.
-
The Moloch's fighterbay doesn't seem all that big...
But as for stealth fighters vs. Shivan wings, test it out in Monster in the Mist, the only missiles that can lock on are Rockeyes because they heat-seek. Shivan sensors can't pick them up (which is how you scan can the Sathanas without its defenses ripping you a new one), and if the Sathanas' large sensors couldn't pick up your fighter without you opening fire, I can't see how the smaller ones in a fighter can track it besides visual contact.
Seems those captured Shivan sensor arrays from 'At the Lion's Door' gave the GTVA sufficient information on the detection/tracking abilities of their fighters, no?
-
The Moloch's fighterbay doesn't seem all that big...
And the Hatshepsut's are tiny. You can't judge just by their external size.
But as for stealth fighters vs. Shivan wings, test it out in Monster in the Mist, the only missiles that can lock on are Rockeyes because they heat-seek. Shivan sensors can't pick them up (which is how you scan can the Sathanas without its defenses ripping you a new one), and if the Sathanas' large sensors couldn't pick up your fighter without you opening fire, I can't see how the smaller ones in a fighter can track it besides visual contact.
Actually, the Maahes was helping you since it distracted the fighters. The Sathanas has AWACS power so the Shivans could detect you... Apparently.
-
As far as NTF fleets go you have to remember that many GTVA ships defected with Bosch thus having to create new fleet arrangements, and we never know exactly how many ships defected to the NTF.
Proof you are a lauzy tactician and trategist thats what you gave me! Sure why not send in all the fleet to get butchered by those shivan juggs which you can barely put a scrathc on them with a destroyer in one salvo! Sure...! What reason would they have to send most of the GTVA forces to engage 80+ juggs when they have a much much much better chance of inflicting heavy damage to the shivans by setting up a blocade! And whyle the GTVA would of been hard pressed to keep that blocade in place they would of most definbetely take such a measure!
Or even better just blow the damn nodes so the shivans cant make use of them!
If I were in that situation I would send every single ship capable of combat in. And I'M NOT saying that the entire GTVA armada was in Capella or Gamma Draconis, but you can be sure that there was a pretty SIZABLE force beyond Capella that was waiting and re-enforcing the frontline troops.
ie. Most of the ships were beyond Capella either blockading, sending in fighters, or escorting.
So it is very posible for a GTVA fleet to have up to 200k people or more !
lets see 200k, thats 6 2/3 Colossus' or 10 Destroyers. A corvette will not have nearly the amount of people that a destroyer has since it has no fighter bay and I'm guessing no marines or ground troops on board it is purely a gunship (same with cruisers) at best i will say between 3k-5k people per corvette. So yes there could be 200k personnel in a given fleet if for some god forsaken reason you decided to put 3-5 pre-existing fleets together.
-
The Moloch's fighterbay doesn't seem all that big...
But as for stealth fighters vs. Shivan wings, test it out in Monster in the Mist, the only missiles that can lock on are Rockeyes because they heat-seek. Shivan sensors can't pick them up (which is how you scan can the Sathanas without its defenses ripping you a new one), and if the Sathanas' large sensors couldn't pick up your fighter without you opening fire, I can't see how the smaller ones in a fighter can track it besides visual contact. There must be a reason why the GTVA doesn't use Pegasus against everyone and everything.
Seems those captured Shivan sensor arrays from 'At the Lion's Door' gave the GTVA sufficient information on the detection/tracking abilities of their fighters, no? But that brings the question of why does the GTVA need AWACs in the nebula while the Shivans don't.
-
Either because the Shivans are stupid that way, or because the Sathanas has AWACS...
-
If you let the Carthage or Dahshor die during that 1st mission vs. the Shivans you get a casualty number for each ship. I think it was 10,000 for the Orion and 6,000 for that Sobek (I have no idea how that little thing fits so many Vasudans...). 3,000 was about the projected number for a Deimos, and 10,000 for a Hecate.
So if the 6th fleet was at its original size, then you'd have to include Bosch's 8 destroyers, various corvettes and cruisers into the picture. The remaining 6th fleet after 18 months is slightly over 100,000 although this gets decimated after the NTF counterattack. In summary the 6th fleet was probably over 200,000 officers and crew (I don't think it was over 300,000 though, but this is my guess).
-
Either because the Shivans are stupid that way, or because the Sathanas has AWACS...
Well, if you take the logic given by the last few missions it could be that the Shivans were too ocupied trying to do whatever they want to do to even bother taking out a ship that wasn't attacking them in the first place.
-
Pegasus/Ptah fighters aren't used for anything except recon and quick stealth attacks because they are the equivalent of a Dragon with less shielding. That plus the limited firepower means its not built for intense combat (any attempt to re-arm is the same as playing Russian Roulette, that support ship is a floating bomb attached to your ship and will take you with it when it goes up)
Shivans apparently love nebulas , I'm quite sure 8000 years has given them sufficient time to adapt their sensors vs. nebular interference (although EMP still seems to mess with them just as much as the GTVA)
-
Keep in mind that stealth fighters are expensive(stealth materials and...because they were prototypes) and they're inferior to a Dragon if we take in consideration the armament. They can't be specificately used in dogfights since a volley of Tempests and some Prometheus shots are enough to take them down.
-
Well, the 1st Terran Fleet was back in Sol--its designation was never reused in honour of the lost contact with Sol. Anyways--the other 11-12 Terran fleets were based in differing star systems, not to mention the likely 13 Vasudan fleets in various star systems as well.
-
There are GTVA fleets, not GTA and PVN fleets. Bosch had the GTVA 6th under his control, for example. I think there should be a "GTVA 1st Fleet" since there's nothing wrong with it. I don't know why Vasudan fleets are never mentioned in FS2(there only are "Vasudan battlegroups").
-
There are GTVA fleets, not GTA and PVN fleets. Bosch had the GTVA 6th under his control, for example. I think there should be a "GTVA 1st Fleet" since there's nothing wrong with it. I don't know why Vasudan fleets are never mentioned in FS2(there only are "Vasudan battlegroups").
Vasudan tradition ? A hidden human way of telling "we have Fleets, and they have only Battlegroups" ?
-
Terran ships are sometimes sorted in battlegroups, so I don't know.
-
That is a big negative! The same discusion was on the old VBB and even here if i'm not mistaken! There are GTA Fleets and PVN battlegroups! Whyle they are all called GTVA fleets in some regard when it comes down to specifics each race has its own designation of they fleet! Since we do not yet have a real intermixed fleet to say so the GTVA still has teran fleets and vasudan battlegroups!
-
Ok, proofs? :)
-
That is a big negative! The same discusion was on the old VBB and even here if i'm not mistaken! There are GTA Fleets and PVN battlegroups! Whyle they are all called GTVA fleets in some regard when it comes down to specifics each race has its own designation of they fleet! Since we do not yet have a real intermixed fleet to say so the GTVA still has teran fleets and vasudan battlegroups!
When the GTVA was formed the decision was for the Terrans and Vasudans to maintain their separate fleets but are commanded under a unified structure. So the Terrans kept the 'fleet' designation, while the Vasudans kept 'Battle Group' for theirs. Unfortunately, fleets and battle groups get used interchangeably in the FS2 campaign briefings and such, and along with mixed forces of Terran and Vasudan warships operating within the same area, creates some confusion as to what is called what.
The proof of them maintaining separate fleets but single command structure is in the Tech Database, Intelligence subsection, topic -> GTVA. This was established when BETAC was signed.
-
Well, they mention the 13th Vasudan Battlegroup and the 12th Terran Fleet. The 13th Battlegroup is based in Deneb, while the 12th Fleet is based at Ross 128. We have confirmed the existance and base-of-operations of the Terran 1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 12th Fleets, as well as the 13th Battlegroup. As it appears, in order to keep a basically equal military presence of both Terrans and Vasudans in the GTVA, there would be an equal amount of fleets to battlegroups, as well as Admirals and Generals.
Also, it is probably the greatest percentage of personal from a fleet that will give it designation--for example, if 1/3 of the fleet is Terran 6th, 1/6 is Terran 8th, and 1/2 is Vasudan 3rd... that would probably be called the 3rd Vasudan Battlegroup.
-
There are GTVA fleets, not GTA and PVN fleets. Bosch had the GTVA 6th under his control, for example. I think there should be a "GTVA 1st Fleet" since there's nothing wrong with it. I don't know why Vasudan fleets are never mentioned in FS2(there only are "Vasudan battlegroups").
My theory is that Bosch took many human ships to the NTF. The remainder of the 6th fleet, the Vasudans remainders, werent large enough for a fleet. So, they are a battlegroup.
The 1-5 and 7+ fleets are integrated T&V ships.
-
Nope since we do not have intermixed fleets as of yet! They have pilot exchage programs but that is about it! They are in the very begining of the merging of terra and vasudan fleets/battlegroups!
Also I believe hot sistems such as BetaAquilae would have both terrans and vasudan fleets in them!
-
Please stop ending your sentences with exclamation marks! It gets annoying! You have a nice custom title!
I agree that the T/Vs have both Terran and Vasudan fleets in them! It is a good idea to keep the capital system under both species!
-
My theory is that Bosch took many human ships to the NTF. The remainder of the 6th fleet, the Vasudans remainders, werent large enough for a fleet. So, they are a battlegroup.
The 1-5 and 7+ fleets are integrated T&V ships.
So...according to you, the 13th Vasudan battlegroup was part of the 6th fleet? :eek: :eek2:
-
My theory is that Bosch took many human ships to the NTF. The remainder of the 6th fleet, the Vasudans remainders, werent large enough for a fleet. So, they are a battlegroup.
The 1-5 and 7+ fleets are integrated T&V ships.
So...according to you, the 13th Vasudan battlegroup was part of the 6th fleet? :eek: :eek2:
Well, it IS the GTVA, and why would there be fleets and battlegroups?
It makes sense that the battlegroups make up fleets, and when the fleet got broken up, the remainders were only battlegroups...
-
But the Psamtik was the Vasudan equivalent of the Aquitaine, I can't believe that it wasn't part of a fine Vasudan fleet. The 13th Vasudan battlegroup should come from systems like Vasuda.
-
The terms "fleet" and "battle group" mean the same thing, except that the former seems to be used for Terran ones and the latter for Vasudan ones. One of the tech room articles says that the two species "maintain separate fleets under a single command structure" or something like that.
-
Is the definition "Terran battle group" used, too?
-
Yup. Check out tech room entries for Perseus, Boanerges and Artemis. For example Perseus:
"Perseus fighters have been assigned to the 3rd Battle Group on a trial basis, with wide deployment expected after the OpEval period."
-
I know it may seem stupid, but...were those bombers tested by Vasudan pilots?
-
I know it may seem stupid, but...were those bombers tested by Vasudan pilots?
As far as we know, The Suicide Kings from 3rd Fleet were testing the Perseus, and the Ravens (also from 3rd Fleet) were one of the first to use the Boanerges. Of course everything's possible, but I guess Terran machines would be tested primarly by Terran pilots.
-
So...is this another inconsistency? What is the true extent of the GTVA fleet? I'm so confused.
-
So...is this another inconsistency? What is the true extent of the GTVA fleet? I'm so confused.
^X2
-
How is that an inconsistency? Looks more like a typo to me.
-
Nay, it means 3rd Fleet = 3rd Battlegroup
-
Nay, it means 3rd Fleet = 3rd Battlegroup
Indeed, that's the most plausible explanation. Is it so impossible that they could use the two terms interchangeably ?
ANother theory - the Terrans call them Fleets because of long naval tradition, whereas Vasudans, not having oceans on their planet (or at least I think so...) would naturally not know what a naval fleet is. The term "battlegroup" may be the official one, used for all documents and stuff, whereas Fleet is more coloquial, but accepted by most in the GTVA.
-
Excellent theory!
-
Yes it is.(I wanna see a picture with a Vasudan on a U.S. battleship).
-
Um, great, but...
didn't we just discuss in the GTA Logo thread about PVN's (Parliamentary Vasudan Navy) logo?
Or am I missing some key element in this thread?
-
Um, great, but...
didn't we just discuss in the GTA Logo thread about PVN's (Parliamentary Vasudan Navy) logo?
Or am I missing some key element in this thread?
Umm, oops ? Haven't seen that one... Of course we can go and say that terran translators screwed up or just couldn't find a more suitable word. It's surely something like "N'sha'vyrrhst'uuu" and it's Vasudan for "Emperor's official mating squadron of doom". So that the GTA pilots and officers don't die of laughter or disgust, the translators decided to call it "Navy"... Now, where there any opther questions about my perfect theory ? ;)
-
Yes one, why would they change the name?I think that is how the Vasudans pronounced them selfs.
-
But there are Terran battle groups, part of Terran Fleets...or no?
-
But there are Terran battle groups, part of Terran Fleets...or no?
No, Terran Battlegroup=Terran Fleet. Either a typo by the designers or (look my theory a few posts before)...
-
You can't be sure of that statement.
-
You can't be sure of that statement.
Of course not. If I would be sure, I would have evidence. If I had evidence, it would be considered canon and wouldn't be discussed here. Basically every speculation not connected with in-game stuff is speculation... Being an Ancient Fanboy, you should know that better than the others :P
-
If there were Vasudan warships part of terran fleets or viceversa then we would have something more then an experimental terran/vasudan pilot exchange program!
-
Of course not. If I would be sure, I would have evidence. If I had evidence, it would be considered canon and wouldn't be discussed here. Basically every speculation not connected with in-game stuff is speculation... Being an Ancient Fanboy, you should know that better than the others :P
Meh, I was fighting your Limited Minds And Your Limited ImaginationTM in that thread :doubt:
We can't be sure of this "Fleet or Battlegroup" matter. Let's forget it.
If there were Vasudan warships part of terran fleets or viceversa then we would have something more then an experimental terran/vasudan pilot exchange program!
We know from the Intro and the Colossus cutscene that Terran and Vasudan fleets operate in conjunction and travel together. The officer exchange program is something different since Terran officers are transfered to Vasudan ships and vice versa, so there's more than the classic cooperation, given only by radio transmissions.
-
Of course not. If I would be sure, I would have evidence. If I had evidence, it would be considered canon and wouldn't be discussed here. Basically every speculation not connected with in-game stuff is speculation... Being an Ancient Fanboy, you should know that better than the others :P
Meh, I was fighting your Limited Minds And Your Limited ImaginationTM in that thread :doubt:
Okey, okey, you made your point... I'll try to be more "open" next time. Open ? Freespace Open ? ;D
-
Well of course they would travel together why wouldnt terran fleets and vasudan battlegroups operato together?? When the need is there for a large asortment of warships you would prefere to have both parties involved they are allies you know.
Also the Colossus fleet is something else since well the colossus wa suposed to spearhead the push towards the victory of the GTVA over the shivans.
When it comes right down to it I can see a Hecate class destroyer acting as command and control carrier providing additional fighter/bommber support to a vasudan destroyer ina battle also the Hecate's escort orvettes and cruisers at least part of them would join the vasudans fighting up close an personal with the enemy. The Hecate is not really suited for front line action but the Hatshepsut is superbly fitted for that role with better beams better hp !
-
No, just open your mind. Don't open...meh, let's change-argument :lol:
-
After such a good showing in the "Reasons for a post-FS2 Colossus", I came here looking for an argument to take a side with...
Unfortunately, I'm still looking... :p
EDIT: Ah yes, never mind. I can clear this right up.
I'm going to chalk up the mention of the 3rd Battle Group in the tech room to an internal [V] error. No where else in the game is the 3rd Battle Group mentioned, and it would make much more sense to mention the Perseus with respect to a relevant fleet (the 3rd) that Alpha 1 would eventually have under his command. Most everything that matters in FS2 matters to something the player has to do with.
Remember the Suicide Kings? The mission to get Macarthy? Yeah, that was relevant and also over 30 years old. :p
It would also make sense to figure that since the Aquitane is the flagship of the 3rd Fleet, and since the Psamtik is the flagship of the 13th Battle Group, what's different? They're both destroyers and provide the same level of command and control ability. Their both under the command of Admirals (Khafre and Petrarch). They both house many squadrons of fighters and have led military operations, in both the Nebula and in the NTF campaign. To say that the Vasudan "Battle Group" is smaller than the Terran "Fleet" could just be that of improper nomenclature. To me, there is no difference. They both provide the same level of force, and, depending on how damage the 3rd Fleet takes could actually make them less of a viable operational asset until it can be replenished, swinging this argument completely in reverse!
Besides, it's much easier to determine which species is responsible for what action by the difference in nomenclature. You automatically know the 3rd Fleet is Terran; you automatically know that the Psamtik is from the 13th Battlegroup.
-
After such a good showing in the "Reasons for a post-FS2 Colossus", I came here looking for an argument to take a side with...
Unfortunately, I'm still looking... :p
Well I don't think there's any argument about the adaptability of the GTVA. The speed of technological advancement is impressive, since Terrans and Vasudans have no qualms with stealing technology off the Shivans :D (Shivans on the other hand don't go for the technology of their enemies, as the Ancients monologue in FS1 will attest to).
-
See the edit back on page 11, lol. You're too quick, Fang.
-
Double post! :P
I'm not sure of it, but I think that Vasudan Battlegroups are smaller than Terran Fleets, though the number of Battlegroups, overall, is superior. It's just an impression I have. I can think of the word Battlegroup as a certain number of warships led by one destroyer(but there could be two-three destroyers) with minimal logistical capabilities. A Fleet should be bigger and it should have fearsome logistical capabilities. The Battlegroup is ebsentially...a battlegroup, composed by strike forces. A Fleet should be able, for example, to rescue civilians and supply other units. The GVD Psamtik, in fact, rescued the Iota transports in the first mission :)
-
After such a good showing in the "Reasons for a post-FS2 Colossus", I came here looking for an argument to take a side with...
Unfortunately, I'm still looking... :p
EDIT: Ah yes, never mind. I can clear this right up.
I'm going to chalk up the mention of the 3rd Battle Group in the tech room to an internal [V] error. No where else in the game is the 3rd Battle Group mentioned, and it would make much more sense to mention the Perseus with respect to a relevant fleet (the 3rd) that Alpha 1 would eventually have under his command. Most everything that matters in FS2 matters to something the player has to do with.
Remember the Suicide Kings? The mission to get Macarthy? Yeah, that was relevant and also over 30 years old. :p
It would also make sense to figure that since the Aquitane is the flagship of the 3rd Fleet, and since the Psamtik is the flagship of the 13th Battle Group, what's different? They're both destroyers and provide the same level of command and control ability. Their both under the command of Admirals (Khafre and Petrarch). They both house many squadrons of fighters and have led military operations, in both the Nebula and in the NTF campaign. To say that the Vasudan "Battle Group" is smaller than the Terran "Fleet" could just be that of improper nomenclature. To me, there is no difference. They both provide the same level of force, and, depending on how damage the 3rd Fleet takes could actually make them less of a viable operational asset until it can be replenished, swinging this argument completely in reverse!
Besides, it's much easier to determine which species is responsible for what action by the difference in nomenclature. You automatically know the 3rd Fleet is Terran; you automatically know that the Psamtik is from the 13th Battlegroup.
I totally agree with you. Battle groups = Vasudan, Fleet = Terran. The reason why you see both Terran and Vasudan ships alongside each other is because they both follow orders from the same Command who sends them into battle together (especially if the individual fleets/battle groups don't have enough firepower on their own), but the for maintenance and organizational purposes they are kept separate (if you disagree then read up BETAC, it says so right in the tech database under Intel -> GTVA).
-
- better intelligence
- better tactics
Why do you say better intelligence and tatics? On FS1 the Lucifer outmaneuvered the GTA fleet to attack Vasuda Prime, that show the shivans know how to think at least.
Yeah but in FS1 the GTA was fairly unprepared to engage the Shivans, even atr that point.
My problem with the 'lol Shivans are toying with us lolz' is because we really just don't know anything about what their objectives, manpower, fleet numbers, etc are. The SHivan's did try to take us out in FS1, but 2.. we, yet again, just don't know.
****ing Interplay.
-
Lets just say that for now the shivans have yet to reveal theyr full motives ! Also while we do know a bit more about the shivans from scans of theyr ships most of the knoledge is limited to tactical info only about weaponry com shields etc. We dont know about theyr society or anithin like that!
-
I see why they call you !!!!!!!!!!!. :lol:
We do not know alot because :v: did it that way.