[Fang_Taichou]

The part about the GTVA 6th fleet casualties is true enough, its in the command briefing for the mission to defend ENIF station, and the Intel on the NTF in the tech database talks about how 6th fleet Admiral Bosch rebelled and took a sizeable chunk of the fleet for his NTF, and he's got at least 8 destroyers (NTD Jacobus, NTD Normandy, NTD Repulse, NTD Andronicus, NTD Cyrene, NTD Vasa, NTD Uhuru, NTD Vindicator) under his command, a bunch of corvettes (NTCv Belisarius, NTCv Hawkwood, NTCv Sevrin, NTCv Jacquerie, NTCv An Luchan, NTCv Pax, NTCv Perseverance, NTCv Yo****omo, NTCv Congreve, NTCv Danton, may have been more) and countless cruisers.  Let's not forget, this war had been ongoing for 18 months so there had been losses on both sides (cruiser/corvette replacements I can see, don't know how Bosch could build a destroyer in that kind of short timeframe though...)

As for how many fleets were helping fight Shivans, I stated that it was my opinion.  2 fleets, the Terran 3rd Fleet and the 13th Vasudan Battle Group I know were at the frontlines against the Shivans, any other fleets I'm not sure of.  If each system had at least 1 Arcadia with full fighter complement, then it is possible all the fleets got mobilized to Capella/Vega/Epsilon Pegasi to assist.  Like I said, this much I'm as much in the dark as you are  

[AlphaOne]

Proof you are a lauzy tactician and trategist thats what you gave me! Sure why not send in all the fleet to get butchered by those shivan juggs which you can barely put a scrathc on them with a destroyer in one salvo! Sure...! What reason would they have to send most of the GTVA forces to engage 80+ juggs when they have a much much much better chance of inflicting heavy damage to the shivans by setting up a blocade! And whyle the GTVA would of been hard pressed to keep that blocade in place they would of most definbetely take such a measure!

Or even better just blow the damn nodes so the shivans cant make use of them! Also there is no limit to the size of a fleet ! While most fleets i agree have but 1-2 destroyers they would have at least 2-6 corvettes and at least double that amount of cruisers! Also do not forget that some fleets while they may hove just one destroyer others might have 3 or more depending on the circumstances !

So it is very posible for a GTVA fleet to have up to 200k people or more ! Couple that with the number of fleets availabe to the GTVA pre NTF rebelion which IMO would be about 26 total 13 for the vasudans and 13 for the terrans! Now figure out how many people are involved!

[TrashMan]

Besides, SHIVANS are the species that takes the Zapp Brannigan approach.  They've got enough fighters, bombers, warships and juggernauts to pull it off.  It was also very Zapp Brannigan of them to instigate the Capella supernova 

but of course! He is their leader! It all makes sense now!

[Ghostavo]

Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.

Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!

Their design is weak? You mean the design that Command tells you we needed to use to stand a fighting chance against them?

[AlphaOne]

Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.

What have you been smoking?? where on earth does it say that the GTVA neds to use shivan designed warships ?? Please Show me!

Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!

Their design is weak? You mean the design that Command tells you we needed to use to stand a fighting chance against them?

[Ghostavo]

Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.

What have you been smoking?? where on earth does it say that the GTVA neds to use shivan designed warships ?? Please Show me!

Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!

Their design is weak? You mean the design that Command tells you we needed to use to stand a fighting chance against them?

I thought you were talking about fighters, but if you are talking about bigger classes, it is even worse. Beam technology is part of ship design, either you like it or not. What you are doing is criticising them for using their advantages. Namely placing their beams in an offensive coverage.

Like Gamma Draconis said, one on one Shivan ships are better than their counterparts.

[AlphaOne]

one on one shivan ships are better then they conterpart in an ofensive battle which is of course what the shivans seem to do most of the times! Yet they have crappy aaaf defences crappy beam coverage! i'm not criticizing them for they uber beams i'm simply pointing out the huge design weaknesses they have! alse the weaponry of a ship is not part of a ship design since well neyther the cain or the lilith for that matter or even demon class warships had any beam weapons to speak of in theyr original state! they were refited! So your arguemnet goes off the window!

[Ghostavo]

one on one shivan ships are better then they conterpart in an ofensive battle which is of course what the shivans seem to do most of the times! Yet they have crappy aaaf defences crappy beam coverage! i'm not criticizing them for they uber beams i'm simply pointing out the huge design weaknesses they have! alse the weaponry of a ship is not part of a ship design since well neyther the cain or the lilith for that matter or even demon class warships had any beam weapons to speak of in theyr original state! they were refited! So your arguemnet goes off the window!

If Shivans don't need defensive ships then why are you even bothering to point that out? They need offensive ships, they have offensive ships. Is there any hidden logic here?

Also, shall I point out the Orion's original design? Weapon configuration is part of their design!

[Fang_Taichou]

I thought you were talking about fighters, but if you are talking about bigger classes, it is even worse. Beam technology is part of ship design, either you like it or not. What you are doing is criticising them for using their advantages. Namely placing their beams in an offensive coverage.

Like Gamma Draconis said, one on one Shivan ships are better than their counterparts.

The only Shivan warship I see as below Shivan 'standards' is the Moloch.  It doesn't have AAA beams, and its anti-cap weapons are SReds.  Compared with the GTVA corvettes, it sucks and defending against fighters and bombers, and in a broadside against a Deimos it gets subsystems and turrets chewed up.

Fighters, well the GTVA one for one have better fighters (they have balanced shielding AND armor, so an AAA beam doesn't skewer them in one go), and they now have those Erinyes (grinds fighters/bombers with Kaysers, grinds ships with Maxims).  A Pegasus is about the equivalent of a Dragon, plus the Dragon can't get aspect lock on the stealth fighter (they don't have the TAG technology to do so), if that Peggy sneaks up on a Shivan wing it can fire of a pair of Harpoons at each and blow 'em away by the time the Shivans know what's happening.

[TrashMan]

If weapons are part of ship design, you could say the same for fighter complements..allmost...

GTVA ships pwn shivns in that case

[Ghostavo]

I thought you were talking about fighters, but if you are talking about bigger classes, it is even worse. Beam technology is part of ship design, either you like it or not. What you are doing is criticising them for using their advantages. Namely placing their beams in an offensive coverage.

Like Gamma Draconis said, one on one Shivan ships are better than their counterparts.

The only Shivan warship I see as below Shivan 'standards' is the Moloch.  It doesn't have AAA beams, and its anti-cap weapons are SReds.  Compared with the GTVA corvettes, it sucks and defending against fighters and bombers, and in a broadside against a Deimos it gets subsystems and turrets chewed up.

Fighters, well the GTVA one for one have better fighters (they have balanced shielding AND armor, so an AAA beam doesn't skewer them in one go), and they now have those Erinyes (grinds fighters/bombers with Kaysers, grinds ships with Maxims).  A Pegasus is about the equivalent of a Dragon, plus the Dragon can't get aspect lock on the stealth fighter (they don't have the TAG technology to do so), if that Peggy sneaks up on a Shivan wing it can fire of a pair of Harpoons at each and blow 'em away by the time the Shivans know what's happening.

The Moloch is the only thing I may agree with you. But on the other hand it has a fighterbay and almost destroyed the Aquitaine.

Regarding fighters, the Mara seems to be leaps and bounds above any other fighter. Also Shivan ships seem to have better shields than Terran. And seeing that the Kayser was inspired by Shivan weapons...

Finally, we don't know how a stealth ship fares in battle against the shivans since they were all used as scouts. For all we know as soon as it starts firing the Shivans can get a lock on it.

If weapons are part of ship design, you could say the same for fighter complements..allmost...

In a way yes. On the other hand it's slightly diferent since they change their fighter complement with each sortie.

And Shivan ships continue to have the upper hand.

[Fang_Taichou]

The Moloch's fighterbay doesn't seem all that big...

But as for stealth fighters vs. Shivan wings, test it out in Monster in the Mist, the only missiles that can lock on are Rockeyes because they heat-seek.  Shivan sensors can't pick them up (which is how you scan can the Sathanas without its defenses ripping you a new one), and if the Sathanas' large sensors couldn't pick up your fighter without you opening fire, I can't see how the smaller ones in a fighter can track it besides visual contact.

Seems those captured Shivan sensor arrays from 'At the Lion's Door' gave the GTVA sufficient information on the detection/tracking abilities of their fighters, no?

[Snail]

The Moloch's fighterbay doesn't seem all that big...

And the Hatshepsut's are tiny. You can't judge just by their external size.

But as for stealth fighters vs. Shivan wings, test it out in Monster in the Mist, the only missiles that can lock on are Rockeyes because they heat-seek.  Shivan sensors can't pick them up (which is how you scan can the Sathanas without its defenses ripping you a new one), and if the Sathanas' large sensors couldn't pick up your fighter without you opening fire, I can't see how the smaller ones in a fighter can track it besides visual contact.

Actually, the Maahes was helping you since it distracted the fighters. The Sathanas has AWACS power so the Shivans could detect you... Apparently.

[Frosty]

As far as NTF fleets go you have to remember that many GTVA ships defected with Bosch thus having to create new fleet arrangements, and we never know exactly how many ships defected to the NTF.

Proof you are a lauzy tactician and trategist thats what you gave me! Sure why not send in all the fleet to get butchered by those shivan juggs which you can barely put a scrathc on them with a destroyer in one salvo! Sure...! What reason would they have to send most of the GTVA forces to engage 80+ juggs when they have a much much much better chance of inflicting heavy damage to the shivans by setting up a blocade! And whyle the GTVA would of been hard pressed to keep that blocade in place they would of most definbetely take such a measure!

Or even better just blow the damn nodes so the shivans cant make use of them!

If I were in that situation I would send every single ship capable of combat in.  And I'M NOT saying that the entire GTVA armada was in Capella or Gamma Draconis, but you can be sure that there was a pretty SIZABLE force beyond Capella that was waiting and re-enforcing the frontline troops.

ie.  Most of the ships were beyond Capella either blockading, sending in fighters, or escorting.

So it is very posible for a GTVA fleet to have up to 200k people or more !

lets see 200k, thats 6 2/3 Colossus' or 10 Destroyers.  A corvette  will not have nearly the amount of people that a destroyer has since it has no fighter bay and I'm guessing no marines or ground troops on board it is purely a gunship (same with cruisers) at best i will say between 3k-5k people per corvette. So yes there could be 200k personnel in a given fleet if for some god forsaken reason you decided to put  3-5 pre-existing  fleets together.

[Ghostavo]

The Moloch's fighterbay doesn't seem all that big...

But as for stealth fighters vs. Shivan wings, test it out in Monster in the Mist, the only missiles that can lock on are Rockeyes because they heat-seek.  Shivan sensors can't pick them up (which is how you scan can the Sathanas without its defenses ripping you a new one), and if the Sathanas' large sensors couldn't pick up your fighter without you opening fire, I can't see how the smaller ones in a fighter can track it besides visual contact. There must be a reason why the GTVA doesn't use Pegasus against everyone and everything.

Seems those captured Shivan sensor arrays from 'At the Lion's Door' gave the GTVA sufficient information on the detection/tracking abilities of their fighters, no? But that brings the question of why does the GTVA need AWACs in the nebula while the Shivans don't.

[Snail]

Either because the Shivans are stupid that way, or because the Sathanas has AWACS...

[Fang_Taichou]

If you let the Carthage or Dahshor die during that 1st mission vs. the Shivans you get a casualty number for each ship.  I think it was 10,000 for the Orion and 6,000 for that Sobek (I have no idea how that little thing fits so many Vasudans...).  3,000 was about the projected number for a Deimos, and 10,000 for a Hecate.

So if the 6th fleet was at its original size, then you'd have to include Bosch's 8 destroyers, various corvettes and cruisers into the picture.  The remaining 6th fleet after 18 months is slightly over 100,000 although this gets decimated after the NTF counterattack.  In summary the 6th fleet was probably over 200,000 officers and crew (I don't think it was over 300,000 though, but this is my guess).

[Ghostavo]

Either because the Shivans are stupid that way, or because the Sathanas has AWACS...

Well, if you take the logic given by the last few missions it could be that the Shivans were too ocupied trying to do whatever they want to do to even bother taking out a ship that wasn't attacking them in the first place.

[Fang_Taichou]

Pegasus/Ptah fighters aren't used for anything except recon and quick stealth attacks because they are the equivalent of a Dragon with less shielding.  That plus the limited firepower means its not built for intense combat (any attempt to re-arm is the same as playing Russian Roulette, that support ship is a floating bomb attached to your ship and will take you with it when it goes up)

Shivans apparently love nebulas , I'm quite sure 8000 years has given them sufficient time to adapt their sensors vs. nebular interference (although EMP still seems to mess with them just as much as the GTVA)

[Mobius]

Keep in mind that stealth fighters are expensive(stealth materials and...because they were prototypes) and they're inferior to a Dragon if we take in consideration the armament. They can't be specificately used in dogfights since a volley of Tempests and some Prometheus shots are enough to take them down.