[Ghostavo]

The GTVA has already captured Shivan cargo, remember the first mission to capture the Knossos portal from the Shivans?  There's a bunch of crates with their freighters dropping off stuff.
Besides, SOC only needs to secure a Lilith-class cruiser for LReds and BFReds (by supersizing the technology). 
Assuming we can reverse-engineer their technology, which isn't so simple as <insert technobabble> as you make it sound to be. Also, I assume beams are not just supersized versions of each other, otherwise there wouldn't be such a wide range of beams. Capturing a Moloch will let it have access to intact fighters/bombers within its fighterbays.

Now, to pull off these kinds of operations, they need to have met certain criteria:

-the SOC needs to jam communications in the area so Shivan warships can't call for help (this is doable, since the GTA Hamako jammed NTF comms while you were doing the hijacking of the Sunder)
I can't believe you are even suggesting this.

-have the weaponry to quickly disable and disarm the warship, and take out any fighter wings so they don't escape (also doable, SOC had Erinyes fighters with Kaysers, + Stilletto II's to bust up turrets and engines)

-have the troops and firepower to takeover the ship (I'd say SOC can pull this off too, we know the size and toughness of a Shivan, so the GTVA has had 32 years to develop weapons suited for killing Shivans quickly and efficiently, give these to SOC soldiers and they will wipe the corridors clean of Shivans)
Right, because we've had thousands of years of trying to kill each other and we still can kill other soldiers quickly and efficiently, especially when they've got technologic superiority  

-have some vessel able to haul away the disabled Shivan warship (an Argo transport or a Triton freighter should have sufficient power to carry a Lilith out for sure, might need 2 Tritons for a Moloch)
While the rest of the Shivan armada comes for whatever is trying to haul the warship.

So you see it's not impossible, and if it's not impossible then SOC will pull it off.  After all, SOC is known for doing suicide missions and coming back home successfully  It's impossible.

I highly doubt that the GTVA could capture a shivan warship capable of housing fighters. Even more so in the nebula. Even more so early in the campaign. They most likely captured it like the Dragon was captured in FS1. The Dragon in FS1 had a faulty drive because the GTA had dificulty modifying the ship, which didn't seem to be a problem with the Maras.

Beg differ, worth remembering that they at the very least captured one Shivan transport in FS1, transport implying high numbers of personnel aboard; more than a warship. There is implication that other Shivan ships were captured as well; we know that the original attempt to capture a Cain failed, but at least one command briefing implies that both Terran and Vasudan forces had made other captures in roughly the same timeframe, and as the war wound down following the destruction of the Lucifer it is probable more capture operations were attempted. It is entirely possible that the capture of a Shivan capital warship like a Demon has been attempted before, or even succeeded.

I know this is not exactly canon (FRED extended walkthrough), but it took the NTF two Argos transports full of marines to capture a destroyer with little crew. Now up the crew and make it Shivan. Does it still look likely?

Given the difficulties experienced in boarding operations against Shivan ships before, it is also extremely probable the GTVA has developed some kind of specialized anti-Shivan weapons for its soldiers and marines in the event this is necessary again. While I doubt anything short a heavy grenade launcher firing a shaped charge (which is possibly what happened in Hallfight) or a shoulder-fired missile could bring down a Shivan with one shot, it's well within the realm of possiblity for the kinetic-kill weapons we saw in Hallfight to be refitted to fire a HEAT or shaped charge round that could probably punch through a Shivan carapace and hurt it, or kill it with several hits.

While I'm at it, let me say just this. People are quick to say "But command uses terrible tactics!" or "If only command would equip ships with A,B, C and D." but they often forget that command makes these mistakes or ship configurations to highlight how powerful or how smart the enemy is. It's a classic case of hype by making the protagonist weak, basic storytelling. If you want to up the tactics or ship configuration and still make it believable you'd have to do the same for the Shivans.

[akenbosch]

Even the GTVA has the tech and skilled pilots crews to capture a shivan warship! Rememeber it is not the ships that suck but rather the orders and tactics!

lets say the SOC has a cruiser called the SOCr Dvalin, and every single weapon on it, antifighter or anticap, and even anti-electronic EMP, was a beam or phaser. would that be better than a GTVA ships with a few beams, some flak, and blobs? i'd say it would be perfectly suited for anything, and all you would need to turn it into a capture vessel is to modify the beams too only affect subsytems (and make them slash). even with terrible tactics, it would be easier to capture a shivan cruiser (or even corvette) than with a conventional GTVA warship. the only thing better suited would be fighters with akhetons and stillettos. even then, the only tactics needed are c-3-3 and c-3-2.

[Hades]

 


What if a destroyer, or even a cruiser jumps in?

[Fang_Taichou]

Ghostavo, what problem do you see with jamming Shivan communications?  I think it's a reasonable tactic, though if somehow it isn't then Pegasus stealth fighters + Stillettos (or Trebuchets, SOC probably had access to those way before the player does) could disable the comms and engines of a warship so Shivans can't call for assistance, while Erinyes wings take out Shivan fighter cover.  Board Shivan vessel with an Argo (that's at least several hundred troops, if not thousands), plenty of firepower (remember SOC gets access to special/non-standard weaponry) and numbers to capture a corvette, let alone a cruiser like a Lilith.

As for beams not being bigger versions of each other, I'd somewhat disagree.  SRed, LRed and BFRed are all the same energy type, thus the same colour (my guess is it's a laser), just each version has more energy inputted for the discharge.

SGreen, BGreen and BFGreen/LRBGreen are the same energy type too (plasma?), and this you can prove for certain since all the TerSlash and BGreens of the Colossus become LRBGreens when they overdrive the beam + reactors.

Vasudan beams are photon in nature, I believe they say so during the end of 'Surrender, Belisarius', which is why they have a yellow/golden colour.  SVas, VSlash and BVas are just different configurations of that energy type.

32 years is plenty of time to research better weapons to kill Shivans, I mean in Hall Fight those chain/gatling guns brought down 1 of the Shivans (I'm pretty sure no one thought Shivans were going to be that big & cybernetic), and in the zero-G of space, a soldier should be able to carry around mini-Subachs/mini-Kaysers (though there may still be the issue of inertia...)

No Shivan armada's coming to save that warship SOC hauls off if that warship (or its dead fighter guards) can't send out that call for help, now can it?

[Ghostavo]

Ghostavo, what problem do you see with jamming Shivan communications? Jamming the communications of someone using the same technology is one thing, but jamming the communications of someone who uses far superior technology?  I think it's a reasonable tactic, though if somehow it isn't then Pegasus stealth fighters + Stillettos (or Trebuchets, SOC probably had access to those way before the player does) could disable the comms and engines of a warship so Shivans can't call for assistance, while Erinyes wings take out Shivan fighter cover.  Board Shivan vessel with an Argo (that's at least several hundred troops, if not thousands), plenty of firepower (remember SOC gets access to special/non-standard weaponry) and numbers to capture a corvette, let alone a cruiser like a Lilith.
It would still need to happen before reinforcements arrive and in any case the casualties would be staggering, either on success or failure.

As for beams not being bigger versions of each other, I'd somewhat disagree.  SRed, LRed and BFRed are all the same energy type, thus the same colour (my guess is it's a laser), just each version has more energy inputted for the discharge.

SGreen, BGreen and BFGreen/LRBGreen are the same energy type too (plasma?), and this you can prove for certain since all the TerSlash and BGreens of the Colossus become LRBGreens when they overdrive the beam + reactors.

Vasudan beams are photon in nature, I believe they say so during the end of 'Surrender, Belisarius', which is why they have a yellow/golden colour.  SVas, VSlash and BVas are just different configurations of that energy type. First we don't know what the beams are exactly, second the LRBGreen only appear in that sole mission I believe, so all that means is that the LRBGreen is the overcharged version of those beams.

32 years is plenty of time to research better weapons to kill Shivans, I mean in Hall Fight those chain/gatling guns brought down 1 of the Shivans (I'm pretty sure no one thought Shivans were going to be that big & cybernetic), and in the zero-G of space, a soldier should be able to carry around mini-Subachs/mini-Kaysers (though there may still be the issue of inertia...) Again the example of humans. When fighting someone who has technological superiority (not to mention physical) casualties will always mount on the side which has less, and in this case it's definatly not the Shivans.

No Shivan armada's coming to save that warship SOC hauls off if that warship (or its dead fighter guards) can't send out that call for help, now can it? And how do you prevent them from doing that? 

[foolfromhell]

The SF Mara (terrans) is not a modified ship. No matter what SOC command says.
The SF Mara (terrans) is a bit LONGER than the regular mara. Wtf?

[Ghostavo]

The SF Mara (terrans) is not a modified ship. No matter what SOC command says.
The SF Mara (terrans) is a bit LONGER than the regular mara. Wtf?

They made it longer when they modified it perhaps? 

[Fang_Taichou]

Shivans could care less they lose 1 or 2 ships.  Just look at Capella, they lost at least 4 juggernauts, a Moloch and who knows how many of their forces.

Like I said, stopping the Shivans from calling for help is easy.  A swarm of GTVA stealth fighters can take out the comm subsystem of said warship and all Shivan fighters within seconds, before they can react.  Proceed to disable and disarm the warship within the next few seconds, before they know what hit them.

Boarding, probably will result in casualties, but a few hundred marines carrying hand-held Subachs/Prometheus/Kayser/Maxims should dispatch a Shivan quickly enough.  That mounted Shivan cannon during Hall Fight appears to take a bit of time to charge up, so SOC teams should have sufficient time.

Besides, while this capture operation is in progress, GTVA forces can create major diversions elsewhere, so Shivan reinforcements are drawn away from the boarding op.

Shivans have superior technology (primarily subspace and beams) but it's not THAT far ahead of the GTVA.  The primary advantage going for the Shivans is NUMBERS.  The GTVA can catch up technologically within a reasonable timeframe, but to match them in numbers is impossible.

The S/B/BF beams I've already given a logical explanation with some canon evidence, if you still don't get it, let me know what you are having troubles with, or if you have a better idea I'd love to hear it 

[S-99]

Taking out the shivans comm systems in the event of capturing a vessel, or just to sneak your ships past it happens a couple of times in fs1. It's a reasonable and awesome tactic. When the shivans comm systems are down, the shivans can't call for reinforcement. First thing to do to capture a shivan vessel is take out it's comm system, then disable it, then take perform de-turreting.

The only next thing you have to fear is the shivans on the inside of the ship.

[akenbosch]

What if a destroyer, or even a cruiser jumps in?

then its instantly disabled and disarmed if its hostile. nuff said.

[AlphaOne]

Why do some people here believe shivans are all knowing all powerfull gods??? Well i actualy don care but let me just say this THEY ARE NOT INVINCIBLE! They can be killed they can be hurt just like any other GTVA ship out there!  They have numbers that is all that is theyr single greatest advantage! Numbers! Its not the subspace tech or the beam tech its numbers!

Capturing a shivan vessel at this point in time using SOC or GTVI soldiers would pe a peace of cake compared to FS1 timetable when they really did not know what to expect!

OF course there would be casualties heavy casualties that is why i was saing use god damn GTVA marines some elite batalion or something! So you loose 3 men for every shivan you kill ! Lets asume there are about 1000 shivans on a cruiser 5 or 6k on a corvette and 10.000 on a destroyer that would mean you would stand to lose depending on what ship you were after between 3000 and 30.000 soldiers per captured shis in the begining! This is asuming you actualy have that many casualties! Who gives a crap???

30k marines for 1 shivan destroyer....i say go for it! They had no problem in landing 600k marines to secure Deneb i believe and you can rest asured the casualties there were a lot higher!

Hell I will be willing to sacrifice even 1.000.000 marines if it gets me a couple of destroyers some corvettes and a buch of cruiser  and at least 1 jugg! The point is GTVA is willing to sacrifice a lot of soldiers to get something really big! And a whole shivan fleet or a cruiser or corvette or destroyer is something pretty big! The tech captured would be like a gold mine! And if that is what it takes to ensure the survival of the GTVA then so be it!


If the GTVA got their hands on one of those BFReds who is willing to bet me that they reverse engenier it and produce a more powerfull version of it within a maximum of 3-5 years time???

[Gamma_Draconis]

Wow AlphaOne. You are just like Zapp Brannigan. Waves after waves of men till the enemy is finally defeated. How do we not know if the Shivans will just self destruct the ship and kill all the "elite" marines boarding the ship? Now the GTVA has just many lost of their best trained men on an attempt to capture a Shivan vessel.

Also, I'm pretty sure SOC doesn't have a destroyer. SOC is comparable to the US's Delta Force. They operate in high risk missions that involves making very little or no mistakes at all. Most of these missions would probably be some covert operations. GTVA on the other hand are responsible for the large and massive battles. They are entrusted with protecting the populace while SOC are responsible for intelligence gathering. I am pretty sure SOC will often use GTVA resources but hold no such fleet of their own besides a few corvettes and cruisers.

[AlphaOne]

Never said they had ijust said the GTVI will most definetly have such a large warship which the SOC would make use if they needed!

also considering the huge prize at stake here I will be willing to sacrifice at least 5000 marines to capture a shivan Lilith class cruiser! Hell i'l sacrifice 200k to get mi hands on one of those juggs! That is if they do not self destruct them!


But then again the shivans could of done so when the cain cruiser was captured!

If casualties were high then well their casualties of war! Its not like you have to do this evey single day! just one of those lilith or moloch corvettes or even a shivan destroyer man oh man! Such a prize!

I'm not ttalking about the ship itself since i consider shivan warships to be crap compared to the GTVA ones i'm talking about the beam canons on them and they fighter/bommber compliment if the ship in question has any!

Also i do remember ww2 history a bit and the outrageus number of casualties ! Or ww1 and those outrageus number of casualties!

And we were bnot even fighting for out survival as a species! We were just fighting over a god damn pieces of land! A small one at that!

[Gamma_Draconis]

Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.

[Fang_Taichou]

Shivans don't seem to bother with self-destruct, otherwise the Antares freighter and SC Taranis would've done so.

Besides, SHIVANS are the species that takes the Zapp Brannigan approach.  They've got enough fighters, bombers, warships and juggernauts to pull it off.  It was also very Zapp Brannigan of them to instigate the Capella supernova  

As for SOC, they won't throw lives needlessly like the regular GTVA Command.  They operate with precision, hitting hard and fast before any effective resistance can be organized against them, then vanishing like ghosts.  So capturing smaller Shivan warships is well within their abilities, as they have at least enough crew to man a Deimos (GTCv Naxos), an AWACS (GTA Hamako), and several fighter wings.  I'd say SOC probably has at least 10,000 personnel, combat and non-combat types, if not more.  Don't forget that there was a spec ops team that was fully prepared to board the Iceni and retrive ETAK + Bosch.

Remember, the GTVA 6th fleet lost 80,000 men or 75% of their remaining forces, plus you have to remember GTVA 6th Fleet's Admiral Aken Bosch took a large size of the original battle group when he started that NTF rebellion.

My point is that each fleet is massive with probably around 200,000 officers and crew, so SOC should be capable of at least fielding a small percentage of that.

[AlphaOne]

Why do you consider Shivan warships interior to GTVA ships? It appears most of the Shivan warships are slightly better then their GTVA counterpart.

Because they dont have anithing on their side except for uber beams of doom! Aside from that theyr design is weak and limited to just offensive battles! Meaning they either manage to hit first or they get trashed ! There is NOT EVEN ONE shivan warship wich has at least adequate AAAF defences on it not to mention evenly spread firing arks ! shivan warhips are useless in defensive battles and are even more useless agains fighters/bommbers! Even a damned orion has better aaaf defences then a Ravana IMO! That is why i'm considering shivan warhips weak!

[foolfromhell]

Remember, the GTVA 6th fleet lost 80,000 men or 75% of their remaining forces, plus you have to remember GTVA 6th Fleet's Admiral Aken Bosch took a large size of the original battle group when he started that NTF rebellion.

What was fleets 1-5 and 7+ doing during the Shivan incursion?

[Fang_Taichou]

Most of the other Terran fleets and Vasudan battle groups were probably on high alert in their home systems, in case the Shivans surprise attack on a second front (remember, Shivans have way better subspace technologies than the GTVA, this much is no argument) or act as reserve forces for emergency deployment (my opinion, you decide for yourself if you agree or not).  The 13th Vasudan battle group and the Terran 3rd fleet were the main ones responsible for dealing with Capella/Gamma Draconis/nebula, though the other nearest fleets may have sent some of their ships to assist.

As for Shivan technology, beams are maybe one or two levels ahead of the GTVA, a gap that is easily closed if the GTVA gets its hands on a copy (reverse-engineering when you already have the fundamentals principles down isn't hard, since its just a matter of refinement).  Subspace on the other hand may need much longer to match (Shivans can use unstable nodes and power up subspace weaponry to cause supernovas, which the GTVA doesn't have a clue how they do so).

On another matter, Demon-class destroyers are a bit of a pain to deal with, its LRed beam batteries take 6 Trebuchets to knock out, and cover the sides and forward, which can quickly rip a corvette to shreds if you don't act fast (GVCv Thebes vs. SD Beleth in 'Bearbaiting').  Though the most compact form of Shivan-made trouble comes in Lilith-package.  How the heck do they fit a LRed on something the size of a Cain (which takes 3 Trebuchets to knockout too), upgrade its hull plating almost 4 times, and let it keep a decent top speed?  I'm quite sure the GTVI wants/wanted that 'comprehensive data' regarding the technicals of that Shivan cruiser, so SOC must've tried to secure one for research purposes.

[Frosty]

Remember, the GTVA 6th fleet lost 80,000 men or 75% of their remaining forces, plus you have to remember GTVA 6th Fleet's Admiral Aken Bosch took a large size of the original battle group when he started that NTF rebellion.

My point is that each fleet is massive with probably around 200,000 officers and crew, so SOC should be capable of at least fielding a small percentage of that.

proof?  From what ive seen each fleet at most consists of 2 destroyers 1-3 Corvettes and 2-4 Cruisers at best thats about 50k soldiers.

Most of the other Terran fleets and Vasudan battle groups were probably on high alert in their home systems, in case the Shivans surprise attack on a second front (remember, Shivans have way better subspace technologies than the GTVA, this much is no argument) or act as reserve forces for emergency deployment (my opinion, you decide for yourself if you agree or not).  The 13th Vasudan battle group and the Terran 3rd fleet were the main ones responsible for dealing with Capella/Gamma Draconis/nebula, though the other nearest fleets may have sent some of their ships to assist.

Proof? I refuse to believe that the GTVA only sent 3-4 fleets to try to stop the second shivan incursion.  The entire survival of both the Humans and the Vasudans was on the line.  If I were in that situation I would send every single ship capable of combat in.  And I'M NOT saying that the entire GTVA armada was in Capella or Gamma Draconis, but you can be sure that there was a pretty SIZABLE force beyond Capella that was waiting and re-enforcing the frontline troops.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Well if you think about, the Shivan ships are designed to be offensive because they ARE on the offensive. I haven't seen the Shivans defend anything. They have almost nothing to defend aside from a few cargo deports. For all we know, the Shivans may have designed defensive and offensive fleets. Each fleet uses its own type of ships thats better suited for their goal.