Author Topic: Hey all you evolutionists  (Read 11207 times)

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Offline Knight Templar

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We'd need a straight city. Maybe LA or New York.  Err.. not New York, scratch that.
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Offline Top Gun

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Offline Woolie Wool

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Offline karajorma

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Ironically enough I did read once (In New Scientist I believe) that one person claimed that there may be a link between the fact that Earth gets total eclipses and the evolution of intelligence.

Unfortunately I can't remember what the link was and no matter how hard I think about it I can't come up with a single credible idea for what it could have been. Still it was published in a recognised scientific source so it obviously wasn't the kind of psuedoscientific rubbish it sounds like :)
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Before the rise of Christianity, most religions (nearly all, in fact) were able to coexist peacefully.  When Christianity arrived and its followers tried to impose their beliefs forcibly upon others, that's when religious wars broke out.  Before Christianity, not a single war was fought for religious reasons.  The only things thought to be worth fighting over were natural resources such as land.

So, chances are, Islam would not have ended up the way it has today if Christianity had never existed.  However, there is no 'control variable' to test that hypothesis, so I wouldn't want to talk in absolute terms.
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Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by Descenterace
When Christianity arrived and its followers tried to impose their beliefs forcibly upon others, that's when religious wars broke out.


Have you ever looked at the early history of Christianity? :rolleyes: It was nearly exactly the opposite.  It took almost a thousand years for the first Crusade, and another hundred or so for the Inquisition.

The Muslims, on the other hand, were fighting each other in a much shorter span of time.

Quote
Before Christianity, not a single war was fought for religious reasons.


How certain are you of that?  I'm sure there were plenty of undocumented wars for religious reasons.  And you can always look in the Old Testament for some documented wars - with Israel as both the attacker and defender.

 

Offline Stealth

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Originally posted by Descenterace
Before the rise of Christianity, most religions (nearly all, in fact) were able to coexist peacefully.  When Christianity arrived and its followers tried to impose their beliefs forcibly upon others, that's when religious wars broke out.  Before Christianity, not a single war was fought for religious reasons.  The only things thought to be worth fighting over were natural resources such as land.

So, chances are, Islam would not have ended up the way it has today if Christianity had never existed.  However, there is no 'control variable' to test that hypothesis, so I wouldn't want to talk in absolute terms.


you don't know what you're talking about

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Originally posted by Goober5000


Have you ever looked at the early history of Christianity? :rolleyes: It was nearly exactly the opposite.  It took almost a thousand years for the first Crusade, and another hundred or so for the Inquisition.
 


true but for this little nagging fact: once christianity got the imperial seal of approval (i.e. once it moved from being persecuted to being accepted and then state religion) the christians went about closing and/or destroying pagan temples/shrines/sacred places.

Never a full scale war of conversion but not exactly peaceful either.

Remember: a monotheistic religion is by its very nature intolerant towards all religions that are different. After all: there can be only one.
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Offline Knight Templar

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Funny you should say that, I was just watching the Highlander:ha: :nervous:
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Originally posted by Stealth


you don't know what you're talking about


he's partially right though. The polytheistic religions of the classical age (mainly the Roman pagan religion) was incredibly tolerant. Every religion was allowed that did not oppose Rome (that's why the Druids were all but exterminated) or the Imperial Cult (that's why Christians got to know the colliseum from teh inside).

Religions not doing that were absorbed by the romans to a very high degree.
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Offline Grey Wolf

And also, that was the reason for the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in the year 70 AD. And the same period is also the source of the word Zealot, coming from a group in Israel that wanted to militarily force the Romans out of Judea/Israel/Palestine, and ultimately committed mass suicide at Masada.
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Offline StratComm

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Before I even start, let me say that I am not defending Christianity for its past.  

Wars over religion are pathetic, true, but so are the majority of the wars that preceded Christianity (in other words everything that's written about from the Greeks, Egyptians, Israelis, Romans (for a time)Babylonians, etc).  The near constant warring of the Greeks is probably the best example; it wasn't religious, it was just that the states couldn't stop picking fights with each other.  But because they didn't really believe in the cause, they would put down their arms for events like the olympics.  There are also practically all of the tribes of Africa, and no one can look at them and say "before Christianity, they were peaceful."  Or for that matter, no one can say that the political turmoil on much of that continent has direct religious ties now.

I'm not going to address the crusades, as they represent a time in christianity that one man controlled religious thought for all of western society, and his own personal agendas were subject to being "incorperated" into the religion.  Those weren't religious wars, they were just sold as such to most of the European populace.  It isn't like that any more in the christian world, and there have not been any major religious wars involving the "Christian" community since the end of the protestant revolution.  However, things like colonialism and the large-scale conversion of nomadic or "primative" people have still happened.  Islam, on the other hand, has a more definitive tradition of war.  There is more basis for the religiously motivated killing in Islam than in other comperable religions, though there are also many mandates against it.  However, any time religion is used to justify mass murder I have to at least give it a :wtf:.  That is not to say that all Muslims believe in holy war, but the religion does seem to have more of a tendency to place more power in the hands of a select few, and it does seem to promote a more primitive culture than most westerners would be willing to live with.  I also don't believe that any of the recent wars in the middle east have as much to do with religion as people credit them with... the wars in Iraq were just the US throwing around some of its muscle, the Iraq-Iran war in the 80's was extremely political, and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that is going on at the moment is fueled by the fact that both ethnic groups (important distinction) claim that all of the country belongs to them.  On this last one I would like to note that there are members of both sides of this issue that have repeatedly forced the religion card, but I do not see prevailing evidence that they represent the populations across the board.  The Afghanistan Taliban was the closest to a religious state as has existed in recent times, and we all saw what that was like.

Anyway, what is dangerous for a religion (any religion) is the idea that [evangilist preacher voice] "I am right and I have God on my side." [/evangilist preacher voice]  I've known people like this, they really scare me because it is not possible to get them to look at the other side of the issue, or even to back down from a confrontation.

On a side note, I need to make a graphic that says "StratComm's 2 cents"
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 07:20:16 pm by 570 »
who needs a signature? ;)
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Anyway, what is dangerous for a religion (any religion) is the idea that [evangilist preacher voice] "I am right and I have God on my side." [/evangilist preacher voice]  I've known people like this, they really scare me because it is not possible to get them to look at the other side of the issue, or even to back down from a confrontation.


True.  And as someone said, "It is not that God should be on our side but that we should be on God's."

  

Offline Top Gun

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Quote
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Stupidity, thy name is "waterdog":

http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showtopic=10203&st=0


Little does he know that the Moon is creeping away from Earth at the rate of 1.5 inches a year and eventually total solar eclipses will be impossible.


Nice one, Personally my favorite proof of god is the untrue story where Euler (famous mathematician) wanted to counter rising atheistic philosophy so blurted out a random equation as proof to a top french philosopher he was debating who had no knowledge of maths which forced him to withdraw.

Here's another dollop of the same: http://www.crank.net/proof.html