Poll

What is God's Name?

There is no god
34 (55.7%)
Lord
4 (6.6%)
Yahweh/Jehovah
9 (14.8%)
Other (post in the thread and let us know)
14 (23%)

Total Members Voted: 61

Voting closed: November 22, 2002, 12:41:36 pm

Author Topic: What is God's name?  (Read 56030 times)

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Offline IceFire

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Quote
Originally posted by Black_Dragon
First of all, to me God doesnt exist.

I think Religion making god ,  al of it,  is for emotions and mentality,  to make people feel better.  Well its even use as for advantages to the church,  for power,  for example,  this astronomer,  that found that Earth wasnt really in the center of the universe,  and then he brought it up to the church,  they did what they wanted and pleased them, as they killed him because he was "wrong" and the church was right.

Really i dont need god,  because he never help me,  people say to me pray for you better future.  Blah Blah.   Because i was the one who did everything to be where im now.   And even i dont have to fallow the way of obligation.   But i respect others,  and i dont give a crap on what are their beliefs.

Apparently being spiritual can prolong your life.  Apparently religious people feel better about themselves most of the time and that puts less strain on the heart.

Of course, being spiritual can happen in many different ways.
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Offline Bobboau

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do you realise that you just gave a good description for spiritualism to be a evolved trait :D
religous people also tend to have a lot of children
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau

religous people also tend to have a lot of children


Hehe, and then we have a bunch of religious children just waiting to spawn more dogmatic dinklings....

Personally I think religion shouldn't be taught to children so they can find god themselves if they wish, but be able to see the 'other side'.... (so on the flip side it shouldn't be ingrained in them that religion is a horrible, brain-sucking thing)
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Originally posted by Kamikaze


Hehe, and then we have a bunch of religious children just waiting to spawn more dogmatic dinklings....

Personally I think religion shouldn't be taught to children so they can find god themselves if they wish, but be able to see the 'other side'.... (so on the flip side it shouldn't be ingrained in them that religion is a horrible, brain-sucking thing)


So then they should be taught only evolution, that man is only an animal, and there are no moral standards?

Wanna know the end effect is if that is put in place? Answer:Today.

Today Christianity is not taught in schools, only the religion evolution. So the end effect is kids shooting up kids, teen sex, and a whole host of things I cannot think of at the moment. I ask you this. Way back when Christianity was part of the curriculum were these things as, for the lack of a better word, "big" problems (note they might not have been problems at all)?

I have seen evidence for and against evolution. I have also seen evidence for and against creationism and God. I have fought myself over this. And you know what, I came to the conclusion that creationism is true and much more "scientific" then evolution.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2002, 05:30:15 am by 516 »
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Offline 01010

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Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ


So then they should be taught only evolution, that man is only an animal, and there are no moral standards?

I tell you. I have seen evidence for and against evolution. I have also seen evidence for and against creationism and God. I have fought myself over this. And you know what, I came to the conclusion that creationism is true and much more "scientific" then evolution.


Creationism is not sensible. Creationists believe the earth is nly 12'000 years old or something to that affect. So, explain to me about the age of fossils and the existence of dinosaurs.
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Offline HotSnoJ

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Quote
Originally posted by 01010


So, explain to me about the age of fossils and the existence of dinosaurs.


Easy. God created them. Then in the flood most of them died. Then the post flood climate was to low in temperature for them to survive long after.
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by 01010


Creationism is not sensible. Creationists believe the earth is nly 12'000 years old or something to that affect. So, explain to me about the age of fossils and the existence of dinosaurs.


Actually, I posted a topic on that very topic a few months ago, lemme see if I can find it...

[EDIT] Ok, so I didn't post a topic - I replied to a topic KT posted. Check out my first post in this thread.

The very basics of it are this: imagine a rocketship travelling at a significant percentage of the speed of light. For the people on that ship, time will seem to pass just as slow/fast as it always has. But relative to time back on Earth, their minute will be stretched over a few months/years/whatever, right? So far, so good, nothing beyond what Einstein said, ok?

Now, the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale, happens with low/high-gravity areas - gravity also has an effect on the passage of time.

Now, consider this: The universe as we know it starts with the Big Bang. Now, time at that one speck of near-nothingness was passing at the rate of one minute per minute. But when all that matter suddenly exploded outwards, what happened to time as it was percieved from each individual piece of matter? It was stretched out, so that it was passing much slower than time at "Ground Zero".

Scientists have done the calculations: the six relative days that are told about in the Bible, if they were considered to be relative to how time was passing on the speeding Earth (slowly), works out to be approximately 16-20 billion years relative to "Ground Zero" time.

Therefore, there is no contradiction in stating that (avoiding the use of the words 'creation' or 'evolution') the universe was brought into being in six literal days, and at the same time, 15-20 billion years.

I love it! :)
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ


Today Christianity is not taught in schools, only the religion evolution. So the end effect is kids shooting up kids, teen sex, and a whole host of things I cannot think of at the moment. I ask you this. Way back when Christianity was part of the curriculum were these things as, for the lack of a better word, "big" problems (note they might not have been problems at all)?

what do you call the crusade eh? Better than school shootings?

Anyway, evolution doesn't cause all the sexual stupidity. Anyway it's perfectly fine to have sex at early age, however children usually can't take responsibility so there's the problem. The problem is not inherent in the early sexual process itself...
Additionally whether christianity is taught or not I think shootings will occur.. why? cause chldren these days are stressed more than people of 'old times' (and can't cope well either)

(where'd you get the idea evolution teaches early sex? or causes shootings...)

 


About your moral standards point... even animals have 'morals' too ya know. Duh. (wait, are you saying humans are for some odd reason very special when in fact our DNA is very close to rats? why are two things made of the same building blocks so separated? Why the hell should humans NOT be considered animals? [dont' tell me we have souls or somehting - 'cause you can't say that's scientific... as you claim christianity to be])
« Last Edit: December 14, 2002, 06:22:52 am by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
wait, are you saying humans are for some odd reason very special when in fact our DNA is very close to rats? why are two things made of the same building blocks so separated? Why the hell should humans NOT be considered animals?



Sorry - I forgot about all the rat skyscrapers and airplanes and space shuttles. :doubt:
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


Actually, I posted a topic on that very topic a few months ago, lemme see if I can find it...

[EDIT] Ok, so I didn't post a topic - I replied to a topic KT posted. Check out my first post in this thread.

The very basics of it are this: imagine a rocketship travelling at a significant percentage of the speed of light. For the people on that ship, time will seem to pass just as slow/fast as it always has. But relative to time back on Earth, their minute will be stretched over a few months/years/whatever, right? So far, so good, nothing beyond what Einstein said, ok?

Now, the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale, happens with low/high-gravity areas - gravity also has an effect on the passage of time.

Now, consider this: The universe as we know it starts with the Big Bang. Now, time at that one speck of near-nothingness was passing at the rate of one minute per minute. But when all that matter suddenly exploded outwards, what happened to time as it was percieved from each individual piece of matter? It was stretched out, so that it was passing much slower than time at "Ground Zero".

Scientists have done the calculations: the six relative days that are told about in the Bible, if they were considered to be relative to how time was passing on the speeding Earth (slowly), works out to be approximately 16-20 billion years relative to "Ground Zero" time.

Therefore, there is no contradiction in stating that (avoiding the use of the words 'creation' or 'evolution') the universe was brought into being in six literal days, and at the same time, 15-20 billion years.

I love it! :)


Hmm.. I get all this time stretching -that's fine.
But where does it ever mention in the bible about dinosaurs or fossils? Isn't this evidence that the people writing the bible had no clue about fossils and such and just wrote a book about what they could deduce/imagine/see?
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich



Sorry - I forgot about all the rat skyscrapers and airplanes and space shuttles. :doubt:


Sure, but we still end up to be large conglomerations of DNA that's very similar to rats. We're not talking achievement here, rather I'm talking about structural similarity of the thing.

To clear my point up: if I build two foundations, one painted green the other blue and put them somewhere, they're very similar right? If I built a shopping mall on one, and build a very small doghouse on the other would one foundation actually get to a point where it's not a foundation because of the stuff built on the basics of it?

Similarly humans and rats are similar in DNA, the same foundation of an animal. Then current humans are shopping malls and rats are dog houses... but the foundation is still the same.

So in conclusion the base of the 'animal' (DNA) is the same for humans and rats, just one has a shopping mall and the other dog houses therefore a human is still an animal :nod:

Edit: *yawn* I'm lolling in a state of half-sleep... so I thnk I'll zip away for the morning/night... *will read replies later*
« Last Edit: December 14, 2002, 06:40:59 am by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Quote
what do you call the crusade eh? Better than school shootings?


I call them distorted Christianity. You must get it straight, the Roman church had distorted the Bible.

Quote
Anyway, evolution doesn't cause all the sexual stupidity. Anyway it's perfectly fine to have sex at early age, however children usually can't take responsibility so there's the problem. The problem is not inherent in the early sexual process itself...


I haveno doubt that that is. I was meaning out of wedlock sex. A teen can be married.

Quote
Additionally whether christianity is taught or not I think shootings will occur.. why? cause chldren these days are stressed more than people of 'old times' (and can't cope well either)


Ya they can't cope because they have no standards to live by.

Quote
About your moral standards point... even animals have 'morals' too ya know. Duh. (wait, are you saying humans are for some odd reason very special when in fact our DNA is very close to rats? why are two things made of the same building blocks so separated? Why the hell should humans NOT be considered animals? [dont' tell me we have souls or somehting - 'cause you can't say that's scientific... as you claim christianity to be])


I will say we are something special. And not being "scientific" is OK in this discusion because science deals with the physical part of nature not the spiritual part.


Now I have a question for you ppl that might bring the petty discusion to a close.

If evolution is true what do I have to loss by believing that God is real?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2002, 07:25:24 am by 516 »
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Offline 01010

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Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ


I call them distorted Christianity. You must get it straight, the Roman church had distorted the Bible.



Ya they can't cope because they have no standards to live by.



I will say we are something special. And not being "scientific" is OK in this discusion because science deals with the physical part of nature not the spiritual part.


Now I have a question for you ppl that might bring the petty discusion to a close.

If evolution is true what do I have to loss by believing that God is real?


Nothing, but that was never the point, everyone is free to believe whatever they like, but some christians try to enforce their beliefs upon people that choose not to believe.
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Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
Hmm.. I get all this time stretching -that's fine.
But where does it ever mention in the bible about dinosaurs or fossils? Isn't this evidence that the people writing the bible had no clue about fossils and such and just wrote a book about what they could deduce/imagine/see?


The Bible was written for humans over the entire span of history - several thousand years.  Fossils and stuff only became widely known in the past two hundred years or so.  Therefore, it's not a high priority seeing as most of history wouldn't know what it was talking about.

Quote
Originally posted by 01010
Nothing, but that was never the point, everyone is free to believe whatever they like, but some christians try to enforce their beliefs upon people that choose not to believe


If, according to your moral view, everyone who does not share this moral view will severely regret it in the afterlife, don't you have a moral obligation to share that view with people?  Not sharing, based on your own moral standards, would be unconscionable.

Not that this does not mean forcing it upon people.  Converting people by the sword is against the most fundamental tenets of Christianity (thus the Crusades and the Inquisition are misrepresentative of true Christianity).  We're supposed to show people the word and answer people's questions, but we're not supposed to force it upon them if they reject it.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
But where does it ever mention in the bible about dinosaurs or fossils? Isn't this evidence that the people writing the bible had no clue about fossils and such and just wrote a book about what they could deduce/imagine/see?


Much of it was in fact observations and personal experiences of what people back then saw, yes. But the first 5 books were written by Moses. And I'll be the first to admit that he most assuredly wasn't around for The Beginning™, but check out that link I put up: the correlation between what is written to have occurred on each (relative) "day" of creation, to the astronomical, geological, and biological activity in the universe and on Earth is nothing short of astounding! Seen through this time stretching thing, Creationists and Evolutionists are actually agreeing about the progress of life in the early stages. :)

An so, since Moses wasn't around then, how'd he know? Well, either word-of-mouth, passed on from generation, or what he wrote was God-inspired. Personally, I believe the latter, since the former doesn't make sense - word-of-mouth has to originate with someone, and everyone agrees that no-one was around during most of the early formative stages of the universe or the earth.

Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
So in conclusion the base of the 'animal' (DNA) is the same for humans and rats, just one has a shopping mall and the other dog houses therefore a human is still an animal :nod:


Continuing that allegory, what do people say: "I'm heading down to the mall," or "I'm heading down to that foundation with a mall on top"? Yeah, our base components are not just the same - they're identical if you go down far enough. Atoms, quarks, etc... But it's in the combination that we find the difference.

Quote
Originally posted by 01010
Nothing, but that was never the point, everyone is free to believe whatever they like, but some christians try to enforce their beliefs upon people that choose not to believe.


Which briings us to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc etc. Heck, even Hitler claimed to be acting in the name of Christianity. You gotta wonder how close to the mark Christianity is to be distorted by so many...

But anyways, Christianity has a history of going far off whack (see above) and having that be seen as the utmost example of Christianity. It's like looking at what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor in WWII and using that as an example of how the Japanese are, period. Everyone (and everything that is composed of anyone) has it's ups and downs, but all should not be condemmed for the acts of a few, or even many - especially when those acts are diametrically opposed to the very core tenets of that groups' belief.

Also... what Goober said. My favorite example is the mistranslation, into both English and many other languages, of one of the Ten Commandments as "Thou shalt not kill." No offense to all the pacifist Christians, but that is so contradictory to the rest of the Bible that it's sad that many have accepted it as true for so long. The accurate translation is "Thou shalt not murder," and you'll have to agree that there's a heck of a lot of difference between killing and murdering. :doubt:
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline vyper

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Ironically, I now feel I'm in the position of defending christianity... :eek2: :wtf: Only so far as to say at least Christianity has evolved on the large scale to be more modern. Many other religions which practise today can be far more barbaric and dangerous. Militant Islam alone is leading the world to another global conflict because it wants enforce medieval, opressive and horrific laws. Even Judaism practises mutiliation of a sort. Christianity has a lot to answer for, yes - Catholicism made Western society intolerant and stigmatic towards minorities (not just ethnic ones). It also put young women through the traumatic  horror of being forced to give up thier children if they weren't married. It also supported Hitler at one point, in an attempt to save the Pope's sorry ass from Blitzkrieg. However, Christianity as a whole cannot be considered a bad thing. I do not believe its spiritual teachings, but I do believe its moral ones.
(Just don't get me started on bigotry in the west of scotland)
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Offline Sandwich

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Originally posted by vyper
Even Judaism practises mutiliation of a sort.


Eh?
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline diamondgeezer

Methinks he refers to the ole' winkle chopping...

Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ
Easy. God created them. Then in the flood most of them died. Then the post flood climate was to low in temperature for them to survive long after.


SnoJ... dinosaurs died out over 65 million years ago (unless you have absoloutely no faith in radiometric dating). The flood was - what - a few thousand years ago? Do not try to tell us that the dinos died in the flod. We will point at you and laugh most heartily, Henry VIII-style...

Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ
Today Christianity is not taught in schools, only the religion evolution. So the end effect is kids shooting up kids, teen sex, and a whole host of things I cannot think of at the moment. I ask you this. Way back when Christianity was part of the curriculum were these things as, for the lack of a better word, "big" problems (note they might not have been problems at all)?


Religion was compulsory in schools in the first half of the last century. There was still the first and second world wars. Religion was taught during the Napoleonic wars. Religion was taught during the Hundred Years War and th English civil war. And you know the most amusing part? Religion was taught during the Crusades.

I can't stand religion, but I am a moral person. Are you saying that because I am not a regular church-goer, I am a bad, law-breaking person with no sense of right or wrong? Example - I reliase why it's unacceptable to go out and kill another person. I don't need a priest to tell me that. Your statement that without religion we have no system of morals is just plain wrong.

Quote
And you know what, I came to the conclusion that creationism is true and much more "scientific" then evolution.


Explain, if you will. Faith is not scientific. Without proof, there is no faith, that's the entire point. When the big guy in the sky appears before me and starts throwing around lightning and so forth, then logic dictataes that I must aknowledge his exsistance - but I will still refuse to let him order me around as he will.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2002, 08:24:20 am by 170 »

 

Offline vyper

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


Eh?


Y'know... the things thats done... um... *points sirruptisiouly to Sandwich's doo-hickey*
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Offline Bobboau

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"unless you have absoloutely no faith in radiometric dating"
I see you're new to this argument :)
no, he has no faith in carbon dateing

on the point of Snoj's desire to turn the public schools of America into Cristian madrasas,
you are confuseing morality with religon, it is quite plain to see that we, as a socal creature, have evolved inherant behaviors enableing us to get along with each other,
I doubt you would argue the point that people are born with an inherant understanding of right and wrong (though I'm sure we'll argue on were it came from), I am also sure that you and I would agree that following these rules is important for us to maintain a healthy civilisation, I am also sure that we would agree on the majority of the basic rules, things like: killing someone is generaly a bad thing (unless there trying to do an equal or greater bad thing to you or someone alse),
and don't steal,
and shareing is generaly good,
be nice to people,

there is however a few that I am sure we'll disagree on, for example:
there is one God, the Father All-sovereign, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, and the only-begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all the ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens, and was made flesh of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man, and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures, and ascended into the heavens, and sits on the right hand of the Father, and comes again with glory to judge living and dead, of whose kingdom there shall be no end:

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the Life-giver, that proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and Son is worshipped together and glorified together, who spoke through the prophets:

and if you don't agree you will burn in a pit of hell for all eternity, so you are not alowed to beleve diferently

now for you that last one is a biggy, for me it is not a truth, it is a belefe, if you chose to beleve it fine, but you can not force someone to beleve it, and you can most certanly not enforce it through the government.
to me there is no greater act of violence than to try and force someone to beleve the same thing as you, (not to be confused with defending ones belefes)
but some things must be tought in schools, so science will be the measure of known fact, science says nothing on the unknown, it fully egnoleges that it does not know anything, and you can fight any point so long as you have evedence to back you're self up, there are many people that hold a belefe of historical fact and a belefe of spiritual fact that would seem to contradict each other.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together