[Rictor]

Yassin offered 30 year truce

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by RandomTiger
Why didnt they just arrest Achmed Yassin and try him in a court of law?

Because we've been there and done that.

Originally posted by Gank
Sandwich, what you're saying is nonsence, with the same logic one could say all jews are murderers because a few settlers murder arabs, or all christians are violent because a few blow up abortion clinics.

Oh, for pete's sake, don't be so dense. I'm knowingly generalizing, completely aware that there are plenty of exceptions to the generalization. But they are exceptions; the tendency among the Arab culture being what was discussed.

I don't like speaking in politically correct, padded words, with enough disclaimers to stretch to the moon and back. FYI.

Originally posted by ionia23
Islamic Fanatic is to Islam as KKK is to Christianity.

Originally posted by Gank
Stereotyping a billion people with the words of three of the most extreme is a pretty bigoted thing to do drew.

Ok, you know what? There is something to what you both are saying, and perhaps those extremist Muslims have gone off the deep end in their blind devotion toward Allah.

But the fact of the matter is that it is just such people that Israel is dealing with - not the Palestinian people, but their leaders. Not the embittered-because-his-brother-was-killed-by-the-IDF potential suicide bomber, but those who recruit him, train him, encourage him. Not the anonymous individuals who try to live peaceful lives amidst the strife, but those who take up weaponry specifically against civillians, who publically say the kinds of things Drew quoted above, and who turn 10-year-old, "mentally slow" boys into freaking suicide bombers!!!!!!

[Bobboau]

they are incapable of makeing the distinction, havn't you figured that out yet.

[Gank]

Sandwich, dont be so dense yourself. Muslims in general do not slaughter people of other religions. We were actually talking about Islam as a faith, not arabs in general.

And yeah, those people who told those kids to do those things are dispicable. So are the Israeli soldiers who shoot kids for throwing stones. Dont try to tell me that doesnt happen, an IDF colonel admitted (actually it was more like bragging) it to my mother in Jerusalem. So's Sharon, he was found directly responsible for the mass murder of 2000 people in the Leb by an ISRAELI court. You have a war criminal as an elected leader and complain about people of the same ilk?

[Bobboau]

yeah, Sandwich, would you respond to the Sharon == war criminal thing, all I ever hear is there side of it.

[Flipside]

That's the whole thing though isn't it, the actions of the leaders are defining the 'people' to other nations. When the leaders condone suicide bombings, the people must understand that he is implying they ALL condone suicide bombings. There may well be members of Hamas that want the bombings to stop, but it's difficult to hold that thought in mind when you have to pick up pieces of civilian off the street. It's also probably just as true that there are a great many members of the Israeli military who wish for this 'war' to end before it blows up out of all proportions.

The fact of the matter is this...
[Citizen Smith]
If you took all the Large Corporate Moguls, the Industrialists, the Oil Sheikhs, the Power Hungry Dictators AND Politicians, and asked them if they were willing to accept a slightly lower standard of living in return to making the world a bit more peaceful for everyone, possibly even to avert a holocaust, how many do you think would say 'Yes, I will do this for Mankind'?

That is where the danger lies. The divisions between the nations, many of them created by those exact people, are what allow them to manipulate, control and leech off of us, and we play right into their hands time and again, with every single assumption we make about 'them'.[/Citizen Smith]

[ionia23]

So, lessee if I've got this straight.

If yonder suicide bomber decides to level a packed restaurant or nightclub, you may not approve of the action but will sympathize with the motivation.

However, if Israel retaliates by leveling the home of above-referenced bomber, they are "thugs".  

What an interesting concept.

[Rictor]

My take, for those who are interested, on the body count statistics provded by Sandwich

Essentially, what the age/gender statitics show is that Israeli noncombatant casualties are random people, as would be expected from suicide bombings. Even so, over 30% of Israeli casualties are uniformed people, with 20% of that being full combatants and 10% being uniformed non-combatants, which in my opinion present are more valid target than civilians.

On the Palestinian side, you have the vast majority of casualties being male, 10-30 years of age. This is consistant with targeting males of military age. Though you have to take into consideration that the proportion of females killed by Israel and Palestine are skewed, due to the fact that Israel has women inthe military while the various Palestinian militant groups are mostly male. This means that a portion of the Israeli women killed would be military personel and not innocents.

Overall, around 70% of all Israeli casualties are noncombatants, while that number is around 20%-50%, the wide range due to the large number of "Unknowns" and "Probable Combatants".

However, the final bodycount of noncombatants:

Israel killed 733 Palestinian noncombatants.
Palestinians have killed 546 Israeli noncombatants.

So, based on the information on an Israeli website, Israel is responsibe for killing some 200 more noncombatants than the various Palestinian militants. Interesting, to say the least. Sorry Sandwich, but if you were seeking to prove how much better the IDF is than say, Hamas, this information failed to convince me. On a personal level, maybe, but on a institutional level, obviously not.

[Gank]

Originally posted by ionia23
However, if Israel retaliates by leveling the home of above-referenced bomber, they are "thugs".  

Who said that?

Btw rictor you forgot to mention that the majority of Israeli non-combatants killed were army reservists who could be considered by some as a military target.

[Bobboau]

that's bull and you know it, everyone in Israel has to join the military, they have a vast percentage of there population in the reserves.

all those palistinian childeren could grow up to be scuicide bombers, so couldn't they just as corectly be considered a valid military target? bull****

[Flipside]

Originally posted by ionia23
So, lessee if I've got this straight.

If yonder suicide bomber decides to level a packed restaurant or nightclub, you may not approve of the action but will sympathize with the motivation.

However, if Israel retaliates by leveling the home of above-referenced bomber, they are "thugs".  

What an interesting concept.

Errrrrrrrrr... I haven't read all this thread, but who said this?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Gank
Stereotyping a billion people with the words of three of the most extreme is a pretty bigoted thing to do drew. The first quote you originally posted is Islams attitude towards other religions. If they attack you kill them, but dont attack them first. It only applies to those who wage war on Islam based on religion. For those who attack Muslims for non religious reasons the Quran says:
 
Just go actually read the Quran, and come back when you're entitled to an opinion on it.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

"I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

'nuff said.  Religions aren't whacked, what we do with them is.  Christian and Muslim alike.

[Gank]

Theres a big difference between someone who might be something in the future and someone who is something now Bobboau. Btw what you said was the justoification given to my mother by the IDF colonel for shooting kids.

Anyways the point I was trying to make was that they could be considered combatents, not that a bus or nightclub be considered a military target.

Ionia23, context, very important thing. The bible can be misquoted the same way as Bobboau showed a few pages back.

[Bobboau]

yeah, I know, I was giveing you an equaly bull**** justification as you had given, but from the other side

[Gank]

Its not the same Bobbaou, reservists ARE in the army, kids MIGHT become suicide bombers. Basic grammar.

[Bobboau]

ok let me put it this way, a quick google search (these numbers could be off) shows that Isreal has roughly 3 million reservists, there population is about 6.7 million, so just slightly less than half of there entier population are valid "military targets" by your defenition

[Rictor]

Bobboau, notice I never used the statistic Gank provided, becuase it it was not on the website that Sandwich posted. The website never mentions how many of the Israeli casualties were part of the reserves, though I would guess that they are maybe included in the "uniformed noncombatants" section, which makes up around 10% of all Israeli casualties.  The fact that a large portion of the Israeli male population is permanently in the reserves does not mean that they are uniformed at any time when they are not actively serving.

And even were it not so, I can't consider a 25 year old reservist to be equal to a 10 year old child who may or may not (statistically speaking, the chances are staggeringly against) become a militant or suicide bomber.

[Gank]

Well, the majority statement was based on the facts that military service is complusary from 18-21 and the reserves are compulsary till the age of 40. Reservists can be called up with as little as 12 hours notice I think so the guy sitting on a bus in civvies one day could be raiding a refugee camp the next. Course its a moot point that they're valid military targets as they're not actually being targeted, buses and the like are being blown up regardless of whos on them. I was making the statement in regards to the non-combatent figures rictor gave, my apologys for the bad wording.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by ionia23
So, lessee if I've got this straight.

If yonder suicide bomber decides to level a packed restaurant or nightclub, you may not approve of the action but will sympathize with the motivation.

However, if Israel retaliates by leveling the home of above-referenced bomber, they are "thugs".  

What an interesting concept.

For those that are wondering, nobody in particular has said this, but this is the general position Gank and Rictor are espousing..

For my part, I have changed my position.  Evacuate the Israelis and nuke the entire region with neutron bombs.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Liberator
For those that are wondering, nobody in particular has said this, but this is the general position Gank and Rictor are espousing..

Once again wrong libby, I mentioned soldiers who shot kids and mass murder, no mention of a bulldozer at all. Learn to ****ing read. Why would anyone give a **** if a bombers house was bulldozed? Hes dead ffs. If there were other people living in the house then it is wrong. Its called collective punishment and no other country in the civilised world practises it. You cannot be held responsible for the actions of other.