Author Topic: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin killed  (Read 19439 times)

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Offline Grey Wolf

Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
Misinterpreted your post. I thought you were referring to the nation of Israel as being the successor of the Kingdom of Israel, and hence protected by God. You were rather referring to God's blessing of Jews as a whole.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Sandwich

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Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
Yeah, I can see how it could be confusing. God's promise was to Abraham to make his decendants a "goy gadol", which can be translated a few ways:

gadol = great / large / big

goy = gentile (modern hebrew) / nation (Biblical Hebrew; not country-nation, but racial-nation)
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Offline Gank

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Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
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Originally posted by Sandwich
On one hand, yes, it would probably appease things a bit. But on the other hand, since when is land won in a defensive war up for dispute anyway?


Again, Israel started the 67 war. You may claim it was a pre-emptive strike but the fact remains you started it, besides a defensive war does not capture land, only an offensive one does. IIRC Germanys war gainst Poland was defensive. :rolleyes:   And conquering land does not give you the right to displace its people and colonise it, that sort of thing ended hundreds of years ago in the civilised world.

As for the Islam being against Israel, it is. theres specific passages concerning what to do when somebody attacks you and takes your land.
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Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors

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Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers.

Israel was born out of terrorist acts against arabs
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Irgun
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Stern-Gang
Most of those living in Israel, 80% including yourself are not from the middle east or not descended from there. You have no right to be there. Doesnt matter what your god says, you're living on stolen land.

Btw there wasnt a jewish nation for about 2500 years before 1950. Sorry to burst your bubble but satans already won. :eek:

Goober5000, militant muslims are trying to wipe out Israel, not Judaism. Theres a very big difference.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by Gank
And conquering land does not give you the right to displace its people and colonise it, that sort of thing ended hundreds of years ago in the civilised world.
Hasn't ended in the civilized world or elsewhere; besides, "to the victor belong the spoils" is a generally accepted rule of warfare.
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Israel was born out of terrorist acts against Arabs
In the articles you cited, the terrorist attacks were incidental: they didn't have any influence on government policy one war or the other.
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Most of those living in Israel, 80% including [Sandwich] are not from the middle east or not descended from there.
:wtf: Is this a factual statistic or your own opinion?
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You have no right to be there. Doesnt matter what your god says, you're living on stolen land.
Tell that to God. :lol: God not only said that, he enforced it - by bringing Israel back to the Promised Land.
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Goober5000, militant muslims are trying to wipe out Israel, not Judaism. Theres a very big difference.
No, they're trying to wipe out the Jews.  During the disapora, when the Jews were scattered throughout the Middle East, everyone wanted the Jews out of their country and back to Palestine, which at the time was a desert wasteland.  Now that the Jews are back in Palestine, they don't want them there either.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
In Judaism, AFAIK, the Satan mentioned in the Book of Job is not considered to be the devil, but rather an angel sent by God to test mankind.
I don't know about Jewish tradition or theology, but the Job narrative is pretty clear that Satan is an adversary.  Satan shows up to God's meeting uninvited.  And while God allows Satan to do certain things, within limits, he certainly doesn't send him.

 

Offline Gank

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Originally posted by Goober5000
Hasn't ended in the civilized world or elsewhere; besides, "to the victor belong the spoils" is a generally accepted rule of warfare.

No the geneva conventions govern warfare now.
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In the articles you cited, the terrorist attacks were incidental: they didn't have any influence on government policy one war or the other

Wrong, it was those terrorist acts which caused the British to withdraw.
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Is this a factual statistic or your own opinion?

Statistical, original Sephardic Jews account for 16% of the population
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Tell that to God. :lol: God not only said that, he enforced it - by bringing Israel back to the Promised Land.

I did, he says it's nothing to do with him, sort it out yerselves.
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No, they're trying to wipe out the Jews. During the disapora, when the Jews were scattered throughout the Middle East, everyone wanted the Jews out of their country and back to Palestine, which at the time was a desert wasteland.  Now that the Jews are back in Palestine, they don't want them there either.

Umm, thats utter bollocks, its been covered before go back and read the thread.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Originally posted by Gank
No the geneva conventions govern warfare now.
And who enforces the Geneva convention?  It's happening all over Eastern Europe with the ethnic cleansing.
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Wrong, it was those terrorist acts which caused the British to withdraw.
I doubt it, but I'll let Sandwich argue this one.
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Statistical, original Sephardic Jews account for 16% of the population.
And what about other Jews?
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Umm, thats utter bollocks, its been covered before go back and read the thread.
:wtf: It's a historical fact.

 

Offline Gank

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Originally posted by Goober5000
And who enforces the Geneva convention?  It's happening all over Eastern Europe with the ethnic cleansing.

So in your eyes whats going on there is ok too? :no:
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I doubt it, but I'll let Sandwich argue this one.

Well he'll probably argue that the British signed off on a Jewish homeland in 1917, in the Balfour declaration. But leave out the fact that Britian didnt or never had governed palestine at the time.
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And what about other Jews?

Like I've said numerous times here, descended from Khazars, Central Asians. Probably not all but most are.
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:wtf: It's a historical fact.

No its not. Go learn some history. Jews had to pay taxs under Islam, but so did all other denominations. In fact Judaism had its golden age 8-11th centuries under Islamic rule. You're getting confused with european anti-semitism, which was rife. But your also viewing Judaism as a nationality, its not its a religion.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2004, 07:24:02 pm by 723 »

 

Offline Goober5000

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Originally posted by Gank
So in your eyes whats going on there is ok too?
No.  I said that it happened; I didn't say that I approved of it.

 

Offline Gank

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But you approve of the same thing happening in Israel. Double standards then.

 

Offline Goober5000

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But that's not what's happening - they're not displacing anyone.  They aren't systematically murdering the Arabs nor are they shipping them off to other countries.  Arabs enjoy the full rights of citizenship afforded to anyone else in Israel.

 

Offline Gank

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Uhh, yes they are, palestinians are denied the right to return, thats displacement. The whole history of Israel has been one of displacement. The method might not be the same, but the ends are. And you're completely missing the point, most arabs dont want to live in Israel. If millions of buddists came and set up their own country on your homeland would you want to live there or would uyou want your own place back?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2004, 07:48:06 pm by 723 »

 

Offline Corsair

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Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
...there's gonna be hell to pay. I have a number of friends in the region (both Palestinians and Israelis). The Palestinians are sooooo pissed off by this...

Sandwich, buddy, I hate to say it, but I'm seeing a lot more violence in the near future. Whether Yassin deserved to die or not, I can't say...but I don't think it was a smart thing for the IDF to kill him.

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Offline Grey Wolf

Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
I don't know about Jewish tradition or theology, but the Job narrative is pretty clear that Satan is an adversary.  Satan shows up to God's meeting uninvited.  And while God allows Satan to do certain things, within limits, he certainly doesn't send him.
From what I've found in Jewish theology, the Satan in the Book of Job was basically created to test the faith of men. I remember hearing once that his role resembled that of the secret services of the kings of that era.  Basically, actively seek out dissent, even where there appears to be none. If there appears to be none, push them until they show signs of dissent. Then, punish them for their disloyalty. Not a good sort of character, mind you.

Of course, even assuming the Christian interpretation of the Satan being evil, most people's views are wrong. It specifically states in the Bible that Satan has the power to walk through both the world and heaven, and the only passage that connects Satan and Hell, IIRC, is in the Book of Revelations, the passage that mentions the lake of sulphur.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Goober5000

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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Of course, even assuming the Christian interpretation of the Satan being evil, most people's views are wrong. It specifically states in the Bible that Satan has the power to walk through both the world and heaven, and the only passage that connects Satan and Hell, IIRC, is in the Book of Revelations, the passage that mentions the lake of sulphur.
True.  Satan isn't going to be ruling over hell; he'll be hollering just like everybody else.

 

Offline Liberator

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Quote
Originally posted by Gank

So in your eyes whats going on there is ok too?


No it's not okay anywhere.  But the existence of Israel is a fact, the so called "Palestinians" are mostly Jordanian.

And as far as Ethnic Cleansing goes, it will only end when one side or the other is eliminated.  Do I like?  Not really, but when the UN interferes with internal situations like this and stop what is effectively a civil war, the old hatreds fester and boil and instead of warfare, where casualties are primarily limited to combatants, you get Ethnic Cleansing where the only casualties are the people left in the middle.

Violence is part of Human nature.  We fight because it's the one thing we do well.  We practice it, we invent new, more ingenious ways to do it.  We even pay homage to those who do it well.  I don't care what kind of drug induced stupor or wigged-out commie fantasy world you live in where people with as different a mindsets as the modern Israeli and the modern Arab can get along in peace, humans are fighters.  Always have been, always will be.  So, unless willing to mindrape every single human on Earth and remake them into passive zombies I suggest you shut the hell up. :hopping:
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 12:17:00 am by 607 »
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Rictor

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Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
So, by this theory, humanity is bound to wipe itself out, or emerge with only a single faction victorious, while the rest emerge..dead. Right? Is this what you are saying?

No offence intended, but people like you should never be allowed to have any power. If you accept murder, you only invite it. Think about that please.

If you do not strive for something better than we have right now, you will never progress. If people had been satisified with using oil for lamps, thinking that it was the way it was meant to be and the way it will always be, then they would have never been compeled to invent lightbulbs. This goes for more or less every invention in the history of makind.

Strive for perfection. You will never get there, but in the process you will improve yourself and society.

I don't know why you think that human bings are incapable of settling their differences peacefully, but I assure you they are. There is nothing in humans that makes them love war. People hate war, most people do. The reason why humanity's history is so bloddy, is because the few who are powerful have fought for power and wealth and such, and they have always used the people as their armies.

No one wants war, except the very few who hold the power. The people of the world do not want war. No one in their right minds would prefer war to peace when possible. Its people like Bush that drum up the people to go to war, just like evry leader does it. If left to their own devices, the people of America would never have attacked Iraq, or imposed sanctionts on Libya or overthrew the goverment in Chile. The same way that, were it not for the war-mongers in the government, Palestinians and Jews would be licing peacfully.

Liberator, you are a white, American Christian. You are the absolute top of the food chain in the world today. You've never known the ravages of war, never known fear or hunger or anything of that sort. So ofcourse you like war. War to you is something that happens of TV or in the movies and its always glorious. The heros win, there are some cool CG effects and the evil is vanquised. But you have never seen anything of the ills that plague the world, so you justify your own supremacy to yourself by saying that its human nature to kill each other and subjugate each other and so forth. But its not, its really not. And until the world realizes that, there will not be peace. These are the ideals that the UN is sipposed to uphold, but they're doing a very poor job of it. The reason that the UN exists is so that nations do not have to resort to war, so that all nations can be held accountable for their actions and you do not have a situation where the strong can exploit and kill the weak.

Honestly, just think about this. I mean really think about it. Its a very important concept. If you accept brutality and war, you only invite them.

 

Offline Liberator

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Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
WASPs are the top of the food chain?  Yeah right.

The UN is supposed to provide a public forum for two nations with disagreements to air their differences peacefully.  At this it has failed miserably.  It's tragically funny that you put so much stock in an organization that let's the Sudan and China sit on the Committee on Human Rights.

Do I like war?  No.
Do I recognize war to be a defining event of human society, pat and present?  Yes.

For wars to stop you have to provide two things:

infinite land for exansion
infinite resources to exploit

What you and the rest of the peaceniks would have us, the USA, disarm as an example to the rest of the world.  This only invites attack.  As a highly educated, but naieve, young person do not recognize this.  People are not the same or equal, there will always be economic or social factors that separate or differeniate them from some other group.  These factors are what eventually develop into armed conflicts.

You can't see the truth of the matter for your dreamworld you want everybody to live in.

We live in a time when the USA has been attacked on her on soveriegn soil and half the country wants us to let it slide.  "We provoked them!" they say.  "Let's give them what they want!" they say.  What would you say to the 3000 people who were slaughtered for no greater offense than getting up and going to work?

Your very existence is an insult to the sacrifice that all our fathers and grandfathers bled and died to protect.  You sicken me.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Rictor

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Achmed "Saruman" Yassin Assasinated by Israeli Gunships
And you are a war-monger who recongize nothing but force. You can see nothing but competition and death and war and in the end; victory or defeat. The fact that we as a speciies have much bigger issue to worry about, what about that? Any confict within humanity is just infighting within a single faction.

As I said, and I hope you aren't offended, is that I very much hope that people like you do not take power. Or rather, I hope that they do not continue to hold power. But I don't hold it against you, each person is the sum of their experiences, so it is only natural for people to hold wildly different opinions.

edit: Form your statement, I only re-enforce my views thart The Christian Right in America and fanatical fundementalists among Muslims and Jews are actively working towards bringing about the end, thinking that with it will come their salvation and the destruction of their enemies. Working towards self destruction is a very dangerious quality to have in leaders, for obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 01:25:14 am by 644 »

 

Offline Liberator

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There you see the conundrum that is the peacenik...you'll give everything you've got, including money, land, and even your children, to maintain a peace.  Any peace.  You see nothing in your life or in the lives of others that is worth fighting for.

That is why you will never be able to establish your "utopia", somebody, not necessarily bigger, just meaner, comes and takes it away because you give it to him to keep from getting hurt.  It's no way to live, and certainly no way to run a country.  I'm not saying go looking for trouble, but never let your guard down.

BTW, America, at least the one I know and love, and the people that live here are an amiable bunch.  We welcome everybody who comes here legally to live and work and  join us.  We won't bug you about how you spend your off hours and personal time, unless it interferes with someone elses in an unwanted fashion.  We are generally slow to rouse to anger, but once hurt we will finish any fight that get's started with us.

I personally am a live/let live kind of guy, the problems arise when pointy-headed intellectuals who think they know better than I how my life should be open their fat mouths and try to create a communistic utopian dream.  I hate to break it to you, Communism doesn't work.  On paper it's great; "One for all and all for one" and all that.  The problem arises when human nature enters the equation.  The ones at the top of the massive beauracracy that such a system generates take advantage of the ones lower down and they prey on the ones lower than them, ect, ect, on and on, office after pathetic concrete office, until the system is so corrupt and degenerate that it falls in on itself.  

Proof of point:  the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  
They were united.
They were Socialist.
They were not republics.

They were an empire only slightly less evil than Hitler's Germany.

More proof:  Cuba
the USA is the only major power that maintains a trade embargo against her and yet she continues to fall futher and further in to decay.  Only Castro's force of personality has kept him in power.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.