[Flipside]

Ok, a helicopter with Air to Ground missiles is not what I would define a 'strategic strike', let's get that out of the way first

Secondly, while I cannot support or defend a man who advocates suicide bombings, I also cannot defend or support a state which advocates more or less the same thing. I hope things are better without him, but I cannot see this being the case, it was the wrong thing to do at precisely the wrong time.

Though I ask you to pause and think which action is closer to what you would consider as 'murder'.

[01010]

I think the condemnation doesn't stem so much from what was done, more in the execution.

Wasn't the subtlest of moves for sure.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Flipside
Ok, a helicopter with Air to Ground missiles is not what I would define a 'strategic strike', let's get that out of the way first

Yes, it is.  Although I would consider it a tactical strike, strategic is more grand, like using a B-52 to drop a skyburst nuke.

[Flipside]

I would personally call it a show of force.. 'We can do this and you can't stop us'.

If anything in the whole world is going to infuriate that part of the world, it is Israel flicking them the bird at this moment in time

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by Liberator
More's the pity they didn't get that bastard Arafat.  Terrorism in Israel would have decreased 50%.

More like it would increase 5 billion percent. Do you know how ****ing pissed off the Palestinians would get?

[Drew]

well considering how much compesation the familys of suicide bombers get, if that money was cut off i wouldnt send my kid to blow himself up, even for somthing like $25000

[aldo_14]

I can;t remember who said this quote, but I think it fits;
"If the whole world went by the principle of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, everyone would be left blind and toothless"

It's not that i don't like seeing terrorists get offed - nothing makes me happier - it's just that the inevitable casualties are the innocent people who get caught int it - be it suicide bombers or collateral damage from the aforementioned missile strikes.

[karajorma]

Delenn said something along those lines in an episode of B5 although it's pretty likely someone else has said it before.

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Rictor
consistently the most educated and intelligent viewpoints expressed Gank.

/shakes hand

'cept mine :D

Yep,

Styxx, whatever

is indeed, a very educated and intelligent response. I am overwhelmed by the sheer command of language and knowledge shown in that post.

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Flipside
Ok, a helicopter with Air to Ground missiles is not what I would define a 'strategic strike', let's get that out of the way first

Secondly, while I cannot support or defend a man who advocates suicide bombings, I also cannot defend or support a state which advocates more or less the same thing. I hope things are better without him, but I cannot see this being the case, it was the wrong thing to do at precisely the wrong time.

Though I ask you to pause and think which action is closer to what you would consider as 'murder'.

Murder is deliberate, suicide bombings deliberately target civilians, while assasination attempts on hamas members are not aimmed at the civilian population.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Rictor


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/404272.html

From that article:

[q]To ensure the victory, Shamni introduced an operational routine of an invasion every few weeks using armored forces, straight into the heart of the refugee camps and the slum neighborhoods, on every occasion leaving behind dead Palestinians, many of them innocent passersby. No one is able to explain the point and purpose of this brutal presence, this constant delivering of more and more blows to an already downtrodden population. No one has been called to account for the terrorism that sprouted and will continue to sprout from these futile operations. [/q]

Seems he read the book on Operation Defensive Shield, when Israel  invaded Jenin.

I remember that that was our main action after the first week or so... we were camped a few miles outside the city, and would go into the city in tanks and APCs on what we called "violent patrols".

We'd drive around the city, shooting at suspicious objects (trash cans left on the road, cardboard boxes likewise near the road, etc). Half the time the object under fire would explode - booby-trapped.

Anyway, the whole point of this operation was to draw attention to our armored vehicles, to cause the terrorists to be drawn to our area and open fire on us. If and when that occurred, we'd pinpoint the window/doorway the fire was coming in from and toss a 105mm in there.

So anyway, the goal was the same - draw the terrorists out of hiding, make them expose their location, and kill them.

And, I might note, Palestinian terrorist activity went down by 70% (IIRC) after Operation Defensive Shield.

Originally posted by Rictor
Alright Sandwich, let me just ask you one thing. Do you doubt that Israel kills as many or more civilians (innocents, not militants) in retailiatory strikes and asassination attempts than Hamas and other militant groups kill in suicide bombings?

Have you ever taken a full gander at the casualty statistics of both sides?

And yes, I know that's an Israeli site, but since Israel is the only democracy in the area...

Originally posted by Rictor
And then there is the issue not of killing the few, but of oppressing the many. Life for the average Palestinian living in the Occupied Territories is not, I imagine, very pleasant. A fact that the Wall does little to change. I find it inconcieveable (sp?) that the Israeli people do not see striking similarities between Israel's treatment of Palestinians and their own treatment under the Nazi regime.

The hundreds killed by airstrikes or bullets are nothing compared to the millions living in poverty, squallor and fear. That to me is the greater of the crimes.

I was appalled at the horrid living conditions of the Palestinians I saw in a village outside of Jenin (I wan't able to stick my head out of the APC inside Jenin itself). To call it a slum would be a compliment. It sucks, and while it didn't quite "break" my heart (not much does - just the way I am), it certainly did wrench it.

On the other hand, the Arab villages entwined amongst the Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem are in pretty good shape. My neighborhood of Gilo is the southernmost neighborhood in Jerusalem, bordering Bethlehem. We're up on top of a hill about 100m higher than the rest of Jerusalem. Along the 2 main roads leading up here are Arab neighborhoods - Beit Safaffa and Beit Hanina, IIRC. They're quite peaceful and haven't caused any ruckus at all, and life there is good. They have a market that's open on Saturday (unlike Jewish-owned/run businesses), and they get tons of business from the residents of Gilo and the other neighborhoods in the area.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Arabs and Jews most certainly can live together without strife. It just seems that they bring things on themselves with the cycle of violence. Israel is willing to stop the assasinations and bulldozing if the terrorist attaks cease. But the Palestinians are willing to stop the attacks only if Israel learns to sink or swim.

And the key to it all is education - teach children to hate, and they'll hate. Teach them to love - they'll love.

[Rictor]

That was Ghandi.

And what does it matter if asassination attempts are aimed at civilians. Innocents inevitably die. Its like opening fire in a crowded mall, trying to hit only one person. It doesn't happen. No one carrying out these attacks (retaliations) can possibly be naive enough to believe that innocents will not die.They always have before.

Lets please be clear on something. People like Liberator, Drew and Sandwich are saying that both sides kil innocents, but only the Palestinians are at fault for doing it. I am saying that both parties are equally at fault. I am not saying that Hamas and others are not to blame, I am only assigning blame to both parties instead of just one.

By the by, I hope that you are all aware that Hamas was created by Israel several years ago to counter-act the more moderate PLO. The thinking was that by having Hamas in place, Palestinians would turn from moderation and to extremism, at which point it would be OK for Israel to kick the **** out of them. Israel has worked very hard to marginalize Arafat, because he and PLO represent a workable solution. If Israel had not created Hamas, Palestinians would support (well, support more than they do now) the PLO, and Israel would have to give them a home state.

It is very convenient for Sharon (and Netanyahu before him) that Palestinians are bombing Israeli cafes and buses. If you have the people frightened of the big bad boogyman, their support for the current regime will be significantly more than it would otherwise. It also provides a very convenient excuse to use any and all means to "keep the people safe". Its works wonderfully, just look at 9/11. Or the fire in the Reichstag for that matter.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Have you ever taken a full gander at the casualty statistics of both sides?

I'll take a look see.

Originally posted by Sandwich
[BI guess what I'm trying to say is that Arabs and Jews most certainly can live together without strife. It just seems that they bring things on themselves with the cycle of violence. Israel is willing to stop the assasinations and bulldozing if the terrorist attaks cease. But the Palestinians are willing to stop the attacks only if Israel learns to sink or swim.

And the key to it all is education - teach children to hate, and they'll hate. Teach them to love - they'll love. [/B]

Agreed. The trouble is that is a catch 22. Palestinians will stop bombing if Israel stops attacking. Israel will stop attacking if the Palestinians stop bombing. Its a vicious cycle.

The answer would probably be to take out the leaders of both sides, and bring in moderates. Sharon will obviously not let up, he's an old soldier who knows nothing but war. It might be more tricky with Hamas et al. though, since their leadership is de-centralized. For my money, Arafat represents a moderate force in Palestinian politics. The PLO supported Abbas and his attempts to negotiate a peace. But they are powerless to stop Hamas from carrying out suicide attacks, partly because of Israel's action years ago.

Bush's roadmap was a failure from the word go. I find it hard to believe that Bush would have made it any other way, given his traditional support for Israel. To believe that he would introduce a proposal that would in the end give Palestinians a homeland, is very hard to imagine. Even so, Sharon has refused to follow the steps provided, thus bringing the compromise to a halt. I cannot see how peace can ever come with Sharon in power.

[adwight]

If you ask me, they should have tryed all they could have to capture his ass.  Then they could interrogate him and what not.  Oh well, this is great news, as some people say he is worse than the dead (if you ask me) Bin Laden anyways.

(btw. 500th post )

[vyper]

I sense an ass biting coming for israel, seriously it's gotta put a hex on the whole peace process.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Rictor
Agreed. The trouble is that is a catch 22. Palestinians will stop bombing if Israel stops attacking. Israel will stop attacking if the Palestinians stop bombing. Its a vicious cycle.

Not what I said, though I can't blame you for misunderstanding me - it was rather vague. The Palestinian terrorist organizations will not stop until Israel is no more - destroyed. They may whine about other things to the english media, but try reading transcripts from the Palestinian leaders' speeched to their own people in Arabic. Completely different picture.

Originally posted by Rictor
Bush's roadmap was a failure from the word go. I find it hard to believe that Bush would have made it any other way, given his traditional support for Israel. To believe that he would introduce a proposal that would in the end give Palestinians a homeland, is very hard to imagine. Even so, Sharon has refused to follow the steps provided, thus bringing the compromise to a halt. I cannot see how peace can ever come with Sharon in power.

I'm sorry for what I'm about to do, but I cannot seperate the two. Nobody will be able to bring a lasting peace to the area except for Jesus. We see this daily on a personal level among Arab and Jewish believers in Jesus - heck, I just watched The Passion with a few believing friends from the US along with a few Christian Arabs last night. (Unfortunately it was a bootleg copy - as the movie apparently has been banned from showing here - and was missing the ressurection. We read that part out of the book, though. ) It was wonderful. The fellowship among Arab and Jewish believers is both amazing and wonderful to see and be a part of.

So yeah, sorry from bringing religion stuff into this thread.

Originally posted by adwight
If you ask me, they should have tryed all they could have to capture his ass.  Then they could interrogate him and what not.

We had his ass back in the '90's - he was released from prision in '96 I think.

[Bobboau]

"Nobody will be able to bring a lasting peace to the area except for Jesus."
I'm atheist and that still sound about right

[Ace]

Originally posted by Bobboau
"Nobody will be able to bring a lasting peace to the area except for Jesus."
I'm atheist and that still sound about right

Yup, when baby Jesus sends an asteroid or comet to vaporize the Middle East they'll be lasting peace.

Second coming Ho!

[Janos]

Originally posted by GT-Keravnos
For everyone thinking wrong about Israel consider this...

In 1940 in my hometown Ioannina there were 5000 Greek Jews and one of the older Jewish communities (rumour had it that it was founded by the Jews fleeing a sinking ship that transported slaves to Rome after the second temple was destroyed). Its synagogue was the founding synagogue of Chicago.
Now,  only a star of David is standing commemorating them. Germans took them all. (some escaped but they were a tiny percentage)

However bad I feel about the plight of the Palestinians, it is prudent sometimes to stop and think how and why Jews got where they are in the first place

GEE ATROCITIES OF THE PAST OKAY THE ATROCITIES WE'RE NOW DOING!!!!1 :gigantic huge ****ing rolleyes: and x 10 (So I have every right to kill Russians, because they bombed Helsinki back in WW2, and everything Serbs and Albanians and everyone else in the Balkans is doing is fine, because it only dates back a few hundred years, right??)

Njah, we must surround the entire Israel-Palestine cluster**** with a huge wall and bombard everyone with bubonic plague and napalm.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Ace


Yup, when baby Jesus sends an asteroid or comet to vaporize the Middle East they'll be lasting peace.

Second coming Ho!