[JarC]

Originally posted by Setekh
We're no longer aiming for a mere "fixed" subspace (which, as you and I have pointed out, already exists), but one with more layers. It's around page 2 or 3, IIRC.

and preferably one that does not have all the current limitations (no size constraints so the number of ships is not limited, either a circular tube (so you actually fly instead of the model moving along with you) o just a looooong bended one

[TopAce]

Originally posted by Ransom Arceihn
I don't see what's wrong with the current jump animations. And I still prefer the original subspace texture. These new ones just don't feel right to me.

This is SCP. The 'Improve everything we can' mania is spreading throught the whole community. They are stoned out by their 32-bit and HTL add-ons, and they have turned on their brains.
The only problem with the [V] subspace was that the texture it used was too small. In my opinion, a talented artist could make subspace much better by simply sharpening the texture. Instead, they make models of 250,000 polygons to slow down FS subspace fights as much as possible.

[Fineus]

Nothing wrong with improving everything possible, is there? Look at how apparently simple yet superior the "FLT" effect for IW2 is.. we could easily achieve that.

[TopAce]

That effect works with 31 FPS with HLT. My main problem.

[Fineus]

So do something else, the point is that the original effect has various serious and obviously ugly features.

[ZylonBane]

If the background editor was enhanced to support placing POFs as well as static bitmaps, the possibility of rolling your own subspace effect would fall out of that automatically.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by TopAce
That effect works with 31 FPS with HLT. My main problem.

Topace, we already went over this. You CANNOT judge how well the game is run by the FPS in the screenshots. EVERY mission I play that runs at my card's max of 60 FPS WILL show a screenshot fps of 32! It's a problem with the image recorder. Not the model.

[kasperl]

that, and as i stated quite a few times, if you don't like it leave it off.

I am not telling you not to make a SW TC because i hate SW and don't want our beautifull engine infested by it's pest. You are not forcing me to play it, and neither am I forcing you to use this model.

So if you don't like it, STFU.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by kasperl
that, and as i stated quite a few times, if you don't like it leave it off.

I am not telling you not to make a SW TC because i hate SW and don't want our beautifull engine infested by it's pest. You are not forcing me to play it, and neither am I forcing you to use this model.

So if you don't like it, STFU.

Erm, did I miss something? Who are you talking to?


ZB, this whole thing originated out of my idea at adding another 2 external layers of rotating subspace goodness outside of the current layers, giving it more of a feel of depth beyond just a psychedelic tunnel.

The texture experimentations have come out of that.

[J3Vr6]

So what was decided on the extra 2 layers, then?

[Turambar]

I think that they were just ignored

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Erm, did I miss something? Who are you talking to?
 

That was directed towards TopAce

[JarC]

Originally posted by Turambar
I think that they were just ignored

`by the flood of texture trials , hey, I am all for a completely new design...but to cut a long story short, as ZylonBane said, this topic is as old as they come, read this Editorial from Ouroboros (who some here might remember?) and then rethink your ideas

[StratComm]

He makes some good points, and admittedly nothing was more strange for Freespace than the mission in Derelict where ships are popping out of Subspace left and right (first encounter with the Lucy-class, I'm not looking up it's name).  There are some gaps in that though; I can't ever remember running in to subspace in either FS1 or FS2, and I seem to remember the distances around the Lucifer to be more than adequate.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by JarC
`by the flood of texture trials , hey, I am all for a completely new design...but to cut a long story short, as ZylonBane said, this topic is as old as they come, read this Editorial from Ouroboros (who some here might remember?) and then rethink your ideas

Ahem.

[q]Because speed is not very useful in subspace - you're pretty much going in one direction, whether you like it or not, and you can't really move quickly in a new direction long enough to use afterburners and countermeasures - missiles are that much harder to dodge. And as speed is no longer a major advantage, the Hercules is the ship of choice, if available.[/q]

Plain wrong. The moving textures make it seem like you're not moving fast, but that's all they do. As far as the game engone goes, subspace is exactly the same as normal space, with a couple of extra rotating tubes around the player.

I haven't sone thorough testing tho - is it possible for a player to actually reach the side wall of subspace, or are the tubes always centered on the player? If not, can a player fly far enough away from a capship in subspace ("dragging" the tubes along with him) that the capship will cross the tubes' barrier?

Does "forward" motion along the tubes length actually move the player closer to the end of the tube? IMO it can't, otherwise the tube would eclipse the sun at the end.

[q]I will say this, however: The first designer to bring before me a subspace-set mission that I can enjoy will receive the coveted "Kewl Werk" Award from me and Zarathud, created for this very sort of design problem. But I don't think that it can be done. Or maybe I'm just too cynical.[/q]

Oh boy, will the FSU surprise him.

[JarC]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Ahem.

[q]Because speed is not very useful in subspace - you're pretty much going in one direction, whether you like it or not, and you can't really move quickly in a new direction long enough to use afterburners and countermeasures - missiles are that much harder to dodge. And as speed is no longer a major advantage, the Hercules is the ship of choice, if available.[/q]

Plain wrong. The moving textures make it seem like you're not moving fast, but that's all they do. As far as the game engone goes, subspace is exactly the same as normal space, with a couple of extra rotating tubes around the player.

No, not plain wrong, in subspace you measure your speed relative to subspace and not normal space...in a subspace mission, everything is centered on alpha-1, give or take a couple of clicks for playroom, you move one way, everything moves along the same way, whilest at all times the subspace model is pointing in the same direction, relative to you they have the same speed and direction, ergo you're going nowhere fast

[StratComm]

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.  Sandwich is correct in that the game simply plasters a model around the playing field and calls it "subspace."  Missiles, fighters, destroyers, and everything else is still measured in game units on a static coordinate system, and move relative to the center of the playfield (also the center of the subspace model IIRC).  That article indicates that you are less able to evade missiles, while this is simply not true.  If it were, that last mission in FS1 would simply consist of flying in a straight line; you'd be unable to manuver at all around the Lucifer, nor around your wingmates if they got in front of you somehow.  Or alternatively, if everything was centered on Alpha 1 as you suggest, you'd be completely unable to manuver at all (as everything else would simply add your velocity to whatever the particular object is traveling at).  You percieve yourself as moving because of the way the background is rendered, but from a technical definition of how the game works there is absolutely no difference between "subspace" and "normal space."

I'd ask a coder about how the model is rendered, but as far as it effecting gameplay it just becomes a fancy skybox.

[JarC]

did you deliberatly ignore the 'give or take a couple of clicks for playroom'?

[Bobboau]

it's a sky box, that's all it is, it's rendered before anything else with no zbuffer, it's rendered around the eye_position with an identity orientation matrix, it isn't scaled it isn't moveing, the only diference between a normal mission and a subspace one is the sky box and the sound effects

[redsniper]

exactly! I was just about to say that, but in less technical terms