No need to be nice towards me. If you think all that, by all mean its your right to say so. I don't take it personally just as I would hope (in vain?) that you don't take what I say personally. You think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. Obviously, thats not much going to change. I'm against being politically correct or whatever. If you've got something to say to me; out with it.
Now:
Originally posted by Liberator
Nation-Building is a slow and sometimes bloody process, if you'll study history you find that less than 15% of the colonial population supported breaking away England. But a few men with a Divinely Inspired vision led the fight out of the dark oppression and into the Light of Freedom and created a nation the likes of which the world has never seen. And I am sick you bad-mouthing it.
I'm not talking about the practical side of "Nation Building". I'm challenging America's right to do so in the first place. If I supported nation-building, the actual nuts and bolts would be secondary. But I don't, so again, whether you succeed (sp?) or fail is irrelevant.
Your views on the American War of Independece are a bit, hmm, romantic. History very, very rarely, if ever, has white knights in shining armour battling the dark forces of evil. As with Iraq and the "war on terror", you try to present America's seccesion from Britain as a struggle of good vs evil. It was not a "nation unlike the world has ever seen", it was in fact very similar to many European nations at the time. This amazing democracy which you claim was created amounted to voting rights for white males. The women and "coloured folk" were left out of the democratic process. Sorry to tell ya, but France had a similar system going several years before. Not to mention ancient Greek democracy, some two thousand years previous.
Originally posted by Liberator
It may not be perfect, and it may stumble from time to time but it is a good nation with basically good people in it. I am sick of seeing people treating what is basically a humanitarian act like it's the second coming of God Damned Mother F---ing Nazi Germany. Knock it off. I won't be as nice next time.
Well, every nation is basically a good one. That is because it is made up of people who are mostly good. I am not criticizing the people to any great extent, I am criticizing the government and rightly so. You can only believe that Iraq (not to mention the various military and economic interventions over the years) as humanitarian if you blindly accept what you are told, despite evidence to the contrary.
I'm not even going to get into the concept of "humanitarian intervention" here, because it is a fairly complex one. What I will say is that, unlike some (not all) Americans, what most of the world sees is that the actions of the US government are taken solely for the benfit of a wealthy, powerful few. This usually (so close to always, it might as well be) causes great suffering and misery. You are naive on such matters becuase you live in America. The reason that the world does not agree with you is that they've seen it and are living it for themselves.
edit: No, I don't think America is anything like Nazi Germany. For one, you've got greater human rights and much more press freedom. For all its flaws, America has some form of democracy. Secondly, the Nazis were reponsible for 6 million innocent deaths over the course of maybe 5 years. Though I think the US may be approaching that number, that is over the course of 60 or so years.
edit2: everyone lay off Liberator. He's got the right to say whatever he wants without being laughed at. "I may not like what you have to say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it"....something like that.
