[Su-tehp]

Originally posted by Tiara

Screw you, ok?

This is NOTHING like that. Comparing me to a Nazi just goes too far.

Besides, I can say the same for you. You think all women are evil and mean **** to you.

Now, I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to disagree. Just don't be such a prick about it.

Agreed. Redmenace has crossed the line. Comparing pro-choicers with Nazi Germany is WAY out of bounds. The debate over abortion is a difference of opinion, not a war of good against evil. Saying that pro-choicers are evil on the same level as the Nazis (or on the same level as Al Queda, like Bush adviser Karen Hughes said here) is the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The sad thing is, redmenace is smart enough to know better.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Goober5000
People excused slavery by calling their slaves "property" (c.f. Dred Scott v. Sanford).  People excuse abortion by calling their unborn children, in effect, "property".

History repeats itself yet again.

Only this time it isn't sentient and its INSIDE the womans BODY. Quite a big difference.

Don't make comparisons based on such utter bullcrap.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Tiara

Screw you, ok?

This is NOTHING like that. Comparing me to a Nazi just goes too far.

Besides, I can say the same for you. You think all women are evil and mean **** to you.

Now, I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to disagree. Just don't be such a prick about it.

Only apology I will make is that of not realizing that Europeans are far more sensative to the subject of the Nazis. And especially being compared to one. I apologize. But my point still stands.

I am going to stop posting in this thread, because if I don't I will get my self banned.

[Su-tehp]

Originally posted by redmenace
I am going to stop posting in this thread, because if I don't I will get my self banned.

Thank god for small favors...

Oh, and if anyone wants to hear Jon Stewart's take on Karen Hughes remarks, you can find them here in two wavefile clips. It's REALLY funny!

[Kazan]

Goober and Redmenace - check your mouths now!

You are using false analogies that evoke powerful emotions to support your point that you cannot otherwise support.  You are calling people nazis and murders because they don't agree with you about your OPINION which is in direct conflict to the PROFESSIONAL JUDGEMENT of DOCTORS and BIOETHICISTS.

You have NO authority in the field in which you're arguing and you know it - all you have is a pathetic piece of historicial fiction which you decide to take litterally.  PATHETIC

I refer to my EARLIER RANT - Go Read it. NOW


Styxx, Shrike, someone lock this thread because the mindless zealots are just going to throw gasoline onto the fire

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Rictor
redmenace: do you feel bad when eating an egg? It could have turned out to be a tiny little cute baby chicken, but instead you ate it. Most people don't have a problem with that cause the baby chicken has not yet started to form and is just a yellow gloop when it is eaten,

well you know I wouldn't feel bad about eating the tiny little cute baby chicken either.

and now that I think about it, the eggs we get in stores unfertalised?

[Shrike]

Originally posted by an0n
I swear to God, if I had a machine that could slap people over the internet....

... I'd never need to leave the house.

Personally, I think all babies should be mass-produced to government specifications in a factory in Novgorod.

[karajorma]

Suddenly I feel the need to put up Bill Hick's comments on the abortion debate

[Kazan]

Bobboau: mass-produced eggs are unfertilized

[Rictor]

I think its been done a few times kara. And I have no idea who this Bill Hicks guy is, or why everyone keeps quoting him.

And as I said, this is nothing like slavery or the Nazis. The baby in not sentient, it is not aware that it is alive. Thats not an excuse, thats a fact. Sure, on some level, all life is sacred. But trees get chopped down all the time for our benefit, and no one says a thing. Really, the only people who have a legitimate arguement for being anti-abortion are Christians.

If theres one thing more violent than political debates, its abortion debates. That, or rival footie clubs, but those couldn't realy be said to be debates.

Abortion is legal throught most of Europe right?

[Ghostavo]

Not where I am...

[Kazan]

Actually life is not sacred - life is life

hey christian righties (anti-abortionists) you should be proud of yourselfs - keep on spreading misogynistic patriarcy

You really should be proud of yourself

"Althought the Clinton administration had supported these [see later] U.N. policy statements, the United States, under George W. **** has refused to ratify the CRC [Convention on the Rights of the Child], CEDAW [Convention to Eliminate All Forms of Descrimination Against Women], and the onvention on the Rights of Women (CRW).  Today, 191 states [countries] have ratified the CRC - it is lacking only Somalia and the U.S" - The Fundamentals of Extremism, the Christian Right in America, page 99

(Note: the CRC is about ALREADY BORN individuals - people who are by technical definition children - a featus is not a child)

[Bobboau]

"...it is not aware that it is alive..."
how do you realy know?
not that it matters, this is simply one of those cases of some people being worth more than others.
my polocy on the subject is, if your going to get one get it as soon as posable, and if she's waited untill the last month or two she should just wait another one and give it up to adoption, who knows, maybe it'll be one of the 'lucky ones'. now there's no real way to legislate this but I feel it's a bit more consistant than just giveing some arbitrary factor (moment of conception or moment of birth) that realy doesn't have any effect on the situation the determineing factor.
do you honestly beleve there is some profound physiological change that happens at the moment of birth that suddenly takes a lifeless lump of flesh and makesin it into a liveing person, it's not a black and white issue, there is no 'point' at with a fetus becomes 'alive' there's a ~9 month proces. saying a baby is less alive the minute before birth is just as stupid and self deluteing as saying it's fully human the minute it becomes an unimplanted zygote.

[Tiara]

It's legal here... But I live in Holland, that should be enough on it's own Anyone trying to rob us from our freedom of choice will be attacked with sticks made out of petrified weed

[Kazan]

"how do you really know" simple biological fact - the neuron pathways for that ability haven't yet formed

the 'lucky ones' are outweighed atleast 2 for every 1 by the unlucky ones - which drain the economy and generally just end up filling the prison system (i'm not stereotyping, there are plenty of studies to back up this statement - i just don't have them at my finger tips because i normally don't have to argue that)

furthermore saying "Pregnancy is the result of prosmiscuity and is a deserving punishment!" is simply myoptic thinking

until the date of viability (which is slightly variable - probably has a mean variance of about 7 days, but you'd have to ask a doctor as this is just a wild estimate) is a more important date than actual birthing for whether or not it's a featus or a baby - because that's the time at which it becomes able to survive outside it's mothers body without extraordinary medical care

Abortions almost never happen after the Date of Viability - unless the baby naturally aborts after that (umbilical wrapped around neck - that's partial birth abortion - that baby _MUST_ come out otherwise the mother will die - but since it's called "partial brith abortion" **** wants to outlaw it)

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Kazan
You are using false analogies

How is an analogy true or false?  An analogy a means of comparison.

evoke powerful emotions

Is that a bad thing?  If the abortion debate is as important as both sides say it is, then of course it's going to generate strong emotion.  On both sides.

your OPINION which is in direct conflict to the PROFESSIONAL JUDGEMENT of DOCTORS and BIOETHICISTS.

I'm sure there are many doctors and bioethicists who would disagree with that.

You have NO authority in the field in which you're arguing

Define authority.  Furthermore, what authority are you arguing from?

I refer to my EARLIER RANT - Go Read it. NOW.

I did read it.  It was amusing.

[Rictor]

Bob: sounds reasonable

And all life IS sacred. Not sacred with any religious conotation, I mean important and worth preserving.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Rictor
The baby in not sentient, it is not aware that it is alive. Thats not an excuse, thats a fact.

There's absolutely no way to determine that.  You can't prove it, and neither can you disprove it.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Rictor
I think its been done a few times kara. And I have no idea who this Bill Hicks guy is, or why everyone keeps quoting him.

Bill Hicks was quite simply one of the funniest, most vitriolic comedians who ever lived. The difference between him and most other comedians was that although he had lots of funny dick jokes the main thrust of his act was rants about how the government was basically screwing with the American people and the rest of the world.  The thing was that while he was very funny his comedy was also very thought provoking and often quite insightful.  

Basically this is someone I think you should definately check out as I'm sure you'd agree with him on a lot of topics.

I did look for site but the main ones seem to have taken their samples down so instead here's one about America's attitude which you'll probably agree with

[Bobboau]

"furthermore saying "Pregnancy is the result of prosmiscuity and is a deserving punishment!" is simply myoptic thinking"
did I imply this or were you responding to someone else?

thing I've wondered about the "partial brith abortion", as I understand it, it's almost always a wanted child that has developed some leathal condition (like the umbilical around the neck thing) why don't they try cecarians? or do they usualy, that's probly it, the PBA is a quite rare procedure.

and "the neuron pathways for that ability haven't yet formed" his position is that life begins at the moment of birth, is it not true that the neuron pathways are in no way diferent five minutes before birth as compaired to five minutes after, and likely no signifignt diference (enough to warent makeing a diference) dureing the previus month or two?