[karajorma]

Originally posted by Goober5000
There's absolutely no way to determine that.  You can't prove it, and neither can you disprove it.

Depends on the age of the foetus/embryo. Many pro-lifers were against stem cell research because they claimed that embryos were also alive.  

You want to argue that a ball of 16 cells is sentient too?

 If not then we get down to the real crux of the matter. When does a foetus/embryo become sentient? It's fairly obvious that it must occur some time after the development of the central nervous system. Until there is no way an embryo can be sentient.

By about 8 months the baby is almost completely developed. Many can be born that early with few ill effects. At that point I do feel it is wrong to have an abortion. However I don't know anywhere that allows an 8 month abortion. The cut off point in the UK is 24 weeks (i.e 2 whole months earlier).

[Crazy_Ivan80]

the real problem with most of the die hard anti-abortionists is that they're also against the teaching of anti-conception methods and such.

[Basically they want to keep the people stupid about their sexuality (like in the middle ages when sex was seen as a necessary evil).]

of course when you take away sex-education or reduce it to abstination only you're making yourself into the cause of many unwanted pregnancies and the possible abortion that comes from it.


the solution is of course simple:

if you're against abortion then don't have one, but leave those that are in fabour the freedom to choose.

But of course the religious crazies won't allow that as in the end the issue isn't abortion, or stem-cell research, or anti-conception... No, the real issue is getting the government to do their bidding, and their bidding only, at the expense of everyone else's freedom. They want to live in the 'perfect' christian state just like it was long ago when everything was 'better'.

Sound familiar? I hope it does, we've been fighting peeps like that since 11/9.

[Bobboau]

****, we've been fighting peeps like that since 1775

[SadisticSid]

Originally posted by Kazan
furthermore saying "Pregnancy is the result of prosmiscuity and is a deserving punishment!" is simply myoptic thinking

'punishment' isn't the way I'd word it, but it's nevertheless anything BUT myopic - 'promiscuity without consequence' IS

[Janos]

Originally posted by Bobboau
****, we've been fighting peeps like that since 1775

Well, you haven't been really successful then, because quite a many different parts of the world have already got rid of those peeps few decades ago?

[Bobboau]

only a few European and Asian nations have realy had much succes, most of the rest of the world still has to watch out for the wakos

[SadisticSid]

Not really, it's just that the US's overbearing global influence makes you notice it more.

[Kazan]

goober is in the habit of stractically ignoring facts - even when they're stated in the thread


if you don't understand how an analogy can be false then you shouldn't be trying to make them, you shouldn't even be trying to argue

a "false analogy" is the logical fallacy in which you try to draw an analogy between two non-analogious things (abortion and nazism for example)

[Sandwich]

What is "sentience"? Does it equal self-awareness?

[q]sen·tience (sĕn'shəns, -shē-əns)
n.
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.[/q]

Ok, so "sentient":

[q]sen·tient (sĕn'shənt, -shē-ənt)
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious: “The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage” (T.E. Lawrence).
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.
[/q]

Seems to me that by that definition, embryos/babies aren't "sentient" (self-aware) until around age, what, 3 months old? When do they normally start discovering their own hands and feet?

Or you could go the other way, and look at what stage the embryo begins "experiencing sensation or feeling." Definitely while still in the womb. How far along, though, I have no idea.

Personally speaking, I'm a pro-lifer, who firmly believes that bombing abortion clinics is unquestionably wrong. Personal beliefs is one thing, explaining your stance is fine as well. But forcing those beliefs on others - especially in a violent manner - is wrong.

EDIT: Oh, and I wonder what the stance of most PETA and SPCA people is on abortion.

[01010]

I just wish I could get the government to give the the right to abort children up to 80 years old.

[Kazan]

...
Catholic control of hospitals is not the only issue affecting women's reproductive health.  Controversy over the procedure known as "partial-birth abortion" has drawn many unsuspecting proponents of choice into the Christian Right's bandwagon regarding the procedure.  The medical term most closely resembling the description of the "partial-birth abortion" is properly termed "intact dilation and extraction."  This method is sometimes used because prior to thirty-six weeks, the cervix is resistant to dialation.  This resistance causes much physical pain during the two to four days it takes to dialte at this stage.  Inductions done before this time also pose risk of uterine rupture.  Therefore, continuous nursing supervision is required if drug induced labor is carried out rather than performing intact dilation and extraction.
In the campaign against late-term abortions, pro-life activists have created the illusion women are deciding at the eleventh-hour that they suddenly do not want to have a baby and, with no concern for their pre-born, decide to abort.  By creating this misperception and graphically depiction the prodecure to appeal to the emotions of the public, even many pro-choice advocates argue the procedure must stop.
The reasons for the use of late-term abortion are not for women who have a last minute change of heart.  The proceedure is used for the sake of the woman's health and, in some cases, when there is "severe fetal abnormality", says obstetrician Dr. Aleen Rosenfield, who is also the dean of New York's Columbia School of Public Health.  Many complications can arise late in pregnancy threatening a woman's life.  Tragically, it is also sometimes discoverd a fetus would be unable to survive birth.*  In these instances, continuing the pregnancy could pose other serious health risks to the mother or result in the inability to conceive again.
Furthermore, the reality is only 1.4 percent of all abortions are perfromed twenty-one weeks into pregnancy or beyond. ...

Page 109 - The fundamentals of Extremism (The Christian Right in America)


Notes:
* Where the hell is your all-life-is-scared demanding god there! Huh?  

You know there is actually no biblical basis for opposing abortion, it contradicts a fair number of passages that talk about aborting already born children!

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Sandwich
EDIT: Oh, and I wonder what the stance of most PETA and SPCA people is on abortion.

"Burn the babies, we want to save the central-american rainforest flesh-eating poisonous cockroach."

[Kazan]

lol Styxx

[Flipside]

Originally posted by Kazan
...

Notes:
* Where the hell is your all-life-is-scared demanding god there! Huh?  

Freudian Slip Kaz?

One of those occasions where the outcome is more accurate than the intent

[Tiara]

if you're against abortion then don't have one, but leave those that are in fabour the freedom to choose.

Ivan, my friend, those are wise words I'm entitled to my own choices as is anyone else.

And Kazan, if people try to argue that their 'god' is like 'All life is sacred' just point out that the bible describes about numerous acts of god that involve killing of innocent people. Like killing all first born sons...

[Kazan]

flipside: irony and sarcasm are lost on you

[Flipside]

Huh? I'm not the only one lost then Kazan, I was landing on your side of the argument. I was saying that the juxtaposed letters in 'sacred' to read 'scared' was spookily accurate, considering you were talking about Gods demands upon people, which, from hearing your point of view is a statement you would agree with just as strongly.

[Kazan]

oh.. i didn't notice the typo... rotfl

[Flipside]

hehehe No problem,

Shoulda done something to highlight it really

[Grey Wolf]

If you get down to it, any fanatic is a moron. And I'm referring to all fanatics. Pro-life and pro-choice, religious and atheist, anyone who is fanatic is incapable of rational thought on the subject.

For example, I personally do not like the concept of abortion. Just doesn't seem quite right to me, except in certain circumstances (rape, incest, impossibility to save both mother and child). But the crazy pro-lifers are just that: crazy. Life may begin at conception, but having it be destroyed at that point is about the same as having a random cell in your stomach die.

Aborting a pregnancy a few months in because the couple (or mother) do not want to have a child does not seem right at all. If a child is just not wanted, put it up for adoption.