[Rictor]

The article Sandwich linked to.

[Gank]

Weekly Standards editor is William Kristol, chairman of the fascist project for the new american century, I wouldnt wipe my arse with the rag.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://www.weeklystandard.com/aboutus/default.asp

[Rictor]

well, that explains . Securing the Realm indeed.

Now, Sandwich, how can you (speaking I assume on behalf of the Israeli people), justify such acts as Rafah. Firing into crowds, leveling entire city blocks. If the projected figures are anywhere close to what actually happens, tens of thousands of innocents will be left homeless. In the quote I posted above, Sharon plainly states that the tearing down of homes is a form of collective punishment, and has nothing to do with preventing terrorism. Just like the aparthied wall, this will just create untold misery in the occupied territories, with no noticeable drop in terrorist activity. I'm just wondering how an entire nation can justify this to itself.

[Gank]

God

[an0n]

I prefer to blame karma-lag.

But when it catches up.....

[Gank]

Read the gas article, doesnt take a genius to figure out what happens when it starts to run out.

[Taristin]

...can't wait for that. Do they honestly believe that by 'punishing' the palestinians, a great majority of which are innocent, that they'll stop the attacks?  They're in for an explosive couple of weeks...

*wonders how 'good christian Bush, savior of the oppressed, and bringer of peace to the world' will justify this. *

[Rictor]

Hehe, I read an interview somewhere and it was quite brilliant, the interviewer hit him with the "What would Jesus do", and **** sort of weaseled out saying "Jesus was a man of peace, and he wouldn't be doing what I'm doing but my obligation is to the American people bla bla". It was fun actually, to see him squirm.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by The New American Century Website
that American leadership is good both for America and for the world

[Rictor]

and some more

10 Palestinians killed, over 60 wounded as IDF fires missles into protesting crowd

also, this

The IDF on Wednesday morning ordered all males 16 or older in the Rafah neighborhood of Tel Sultan to gather in a local school.

Armed men in the area were instructed to turn themselves in while holding a white flag.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

that refugee camp should have been long gone.
But why all know why it's still there and who's to blame.
And it's not israel.

maybe if the palestinians themselves acted against terrorists instead of aiding them the IDF wouldn't have to do what it does.

Remember: Israel has to lose only once for a new holocaust to be unleashed.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Gank
Weekly standard? You know thats a neocon mouthpiece, and they arent exactly known for objectivity.

I didn't link to the article for any kind of objectivity, which would be obsious to you if you actually read it. It's a "comic relief" article, and although I personally think it brings up a number of good points, I'm not going to be basing any arguments here off of it, obviously.

Originally posted by Gank
All news reports on the matter I've seen say the kids were killed by IDF gunfire, and there was some interesting footage on skynews last night of a dozen or so Israeli soldiers sitting in a home with a palestinian family including 4 kids in the middle of them. Isnt using civilians as human shields against the geneva convention? Or does Israel have special dispensation from god allowing it to ignore that?

Please explain what you're trying to say concerning the soldiers in a palestinian house with 4 kids in the middle. Perhaps there's something here I'm taking for granted that people know, but I don't see how this relates to the human shields issue.

Originally posted by Gank
LOL at the Tom Clancy suggestion, somebody needs to talk to some actual Israelis, take sandwich here for example, he thinks Palestinians worship satan because theyre muslim despite the fact that 1 in 6 is a christian. Settlers are worse by a long shot.

Ok, now you're just pissing me off. I don't mind that you have wildly differing opinions from me one bit. But don't you dare start to misquote me or put words in my mouth, mister.

My opinion on Muslims, from my Christian POV, is what it is. It has no relation to Palestinians per se - I have a number of Palestinian and Israeli Arab friends that are Christian. I never make blanket statements or generalizations without stating that it is a generalization, and that there are no lack of exceptions.

Don't confuse Muslims with Arabs, don't confuse Americans with Christians, and don't confuse (although hard, I do admit) those of the Jewish people with those of the Jewish religion.

Originally posted by Gank
...dying for your cause isnt a strictly muslim thing, Regardless of that though all palestinians are being punished for it, regardless of faith.

Are you talking about suicide bombers? You might want to, in the name of accuracy, rephrase that to "murdering for your cause".

And yes, the Christian Palestinians are suffering under the restrictions just as much as the Muslim Palestinians are. The only exception that I know of is that generally (see?), you have Muslim villages and Christian villages mostly seperate. This doesn't hold for the larger cities, though.

Originally posted by an0n
Uh-oh

Ok, definitely time for me to catch up on the news here. I'll post the Israeli POV in a bit.

[Taristin]

In response ot Crazy_Ivan's post:

 Bull****. The Palestinian people, in large, are not terrorists. They aren't all aiding terror. That's like saying 'every American loves ****.' It may be a refugee camp, but it is home to thousands of people who have been forced from their homes by Israeli 'settlers' (as if it was some kind of unexplored wilderness).  It's just a load of crap. I wish America would stop supporting Israel (no offense to Sandwich, but this is my personal belief) it'd make us a damn sight safer, and make us look like less a hipocrate.

[Rictor]

Israel has been unleasing a holocaust of its own on the Palestininas since 1948. How such a reversal of roles can happen so easily, that will be one of the great questions asked by historians of subsequent generations.

Ivan: yeah, the IDF has to kill Palestinians because of terrorist attack, and Hamas has to commit them becuase the IDF attacks Palestinians, which it does becuase of terrorist attacks, which happens due to the IDF attacking Palestinians, which happens due to terrorist attacks......

and besides, it is illegal to impose collective punishment on a whole population, which is what is happening in Israel. They can attack militants, not the general population.

[Sandwich]

Here's the Jerusalem Post article I've been reading. I'd call it a fair balance to BBC's article.

Summary of the main points are:

The tank shells were fired at an abandoned building near the advancing rioters.

The helicopter missiles were fired at empty ground, and, in one case, a couple of terrorists setting up a bomb near IDF forces.

The Knesset is in an uproar due to the operation (what kind of a wussy name is Operation Rainbow, anyway?). Some interesting reading in that part.

The goals of the operation are to eliminate the weapons' smuggling in the Rafiah area. Kinda unclear.

And I know you'll all scoff at me, but I do feel saddend at the Palestinian deaths.

[pyro-manic]

Crazy_Ivan80: Erm, explain please?

Israel is the cause of nearly all the world's terrorist problems. Muslims hate the "West" because it supports Israel. They hate Irsael because it's creation basically involved kicking the Palestinians out of their own country. They've got every right to be pissed off. I'm not condoning their actions, and yes, there is a lot more that the Palestinian leadership could do to prevent these attacks, but they are the victims here. They're not against the Jews in principle, just the manner of Israel's creation and the negative effect it had on their lives. Yes, there will always be a hard core of Islamic nutters who want Sharia law for the whole world, but there is also a hard core of Christian fundies who want Biblical law for the whole world, so there's not much of an argument there.

Israel needs to back right off, remove its illegal settlements, and let the Palestinians get on with building their new state. That's the only way the terrorists will stop. Razing whole city districts is just going to bring down even more trouble....

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
Erm, explain please?

Israel is the cause of nearly all the world's terrorist problems. Muslims hate the "West" because it supports Israel. They hate Irsael because it's creation basically involved kicking the Palestinians out of their own country. They've got every right to be pissed off. I'm not condoning their actions, and yes, there is a lot more that the Palestinian leadership could do to prevent these attacks, but they are the victims here. They're not against the Jews in principle, just the manner of Israel's creation and the negative effect it had on their lives. Yes, there will always be a hard core of Islamic nutters who want Sharia law for the whole world, but there is also a hard core of Christian fundies who want Biblical law for the whole world, so there's not much of an argument there.

Israel needs to back right off, remove its illegal settlements, and let the Palestinians get on with building their new state. That's the only way the terrorists will stop. Razing whole city districts is just going to bring down even more trouble....

Learn your history.

[pyro-manic]

'Scuse me? Where am I going wrong?

[an0n]

They didn't 'kick the palestinians out'.

Britain and America kicked the **** out of everyone in the area during WW2 and gave it to the Jews in exchange for cash and ****.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Rictor
well, that explains . Securing the Realm indeed.

Now, Sandwich, how can you (speaking I assume on behalf of the Israeli people), justify such acts as Rafah. Firing into crowds, leveling entire city blocks. If the projected figures are anywhere close to what actually happens, tens of thousands of innocents will be left homeless. In the quote I posted above, Sharon plainly states that the tearing down of homes is a form of collective punishment, and has nothing to do with preventing terrorism. Just like the aparthied wall, this will just create untold misery in the occupied territories, with no noticeable drop in terrorist activity. I'm just wondering how an entire nation can justify this to itself.

wait wait. firing into crowds? or having crowds of protestors running throught an intersection where a firefight is taking place between the IDF and militants... wow you really chose what part of this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3728681.stm) article YOU would read. lets hope not everyone makes the same mistake.

The army said it did not deliberately target protesters, but a helicopter and tanks had fired warning shots to stop crowds entering a battle zone.

The incident happened as about 3,000 demonstrators marched down the main street of Rafah towards the Tel Sultan area where Israeli raids have been concentrated in the last two days.

now lets review so we understand reading the same english... they were marching into a battlezone. hmm now you may say well when the army saw them coming into the battlezone anyhow despite apperent gunship and tank fire to scare them away they should have stopped firing at the militants in that area... only 2 things wrong with that

1. they may have and the militant were simply putting bullets in their own people and blame it on Israel why not? that dosnt happen all the time  
2. maybe its because in a battle area when you have civilians and militants dressed alike some running across the street with guns others without its sorta hard to make such judgments with bullets whizzing by your head. but maybe you havnt seen urban combat like this... maybe you cant understand how it works...
3. you ever had a docter hit you in the knee with a little hammer? it wasnt just because he hated you. it was to test reflexes the same ones that tell you to duck when bullets come whizzing by you and the same on that tells you to fire back.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Please explain what you're trying to say concerning the soldiers in a palestinian house with 4 kids in the middle. Perhaps there's something here I'm taking for granted that people know, but I don't see how this relates to the human shields issue.
Don't confuse Muslims with Arabs, don't confuse Americans with Christians, and don't confuse (although hard, I do admit) those of the Jewish people with those of the Jewish religion.

what are you talking about?! that makes perfect sense they are human shields... they are in the middle of a room surounded by israeli army personell... the IDF are the human shields for the innocent palestinians in that home. is that so hard to understand you silly brother?