[Splinter]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
'Scuse me? Where am I going wrong?

your supposition that if IDF withdraws and all the settlements are removed the terrorist attacks will stop.... one thing before getting into a  war is learn your enemys objectives I do belive with anyone with half the brain cells required to think could find with very little effort every single one of the stated objectives of every single terrorist organization operating in Israel...

They want Jews/Israelis=Dead... as simple as that as disgusting as that...  

[Ghostavo]

I wonder how would America in general react if a group of nations invaded a portion of the U.S. and gave it to the "native american people".

[Sandwich]

Splinter, don't be insulting.

[Gank]

No, its not a fair balance to the BBC, it would be a fair balance to an Al-Jazeera article, BBC have no bias in the mattr while JP clearly does. Its bull**** too,

Associated Press Television News footage showed a large explosion going off in a crowd of demonstrators, followed by Palestinians carrying the wounded — including children and teenagers — from the smoky scene.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_mideast_7

Originally posted by Sandwich
I didn't link to the article for any kind of objectivity, which would be obsious to you if you actually read it. It's a "comic relief" article, and although I personally think it brings up a number of good points, I'm not going to be basing any arguments here off of it, obviously.

I just looked over it and dont find it remotely funny, more like bigoted and racist.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Please explain what you're trying to say concerning the soldiers in a palestinian house with 4 kids in the middle. Perhaps there's something here I'm taking for granted that people know, but I don't see how this relates to the human shields issue.

All the soldiers were lying on the ground or crouching and had the family covered by their weapons. This implys they felt they were under threat and were holding the family against their will, therefore using them as human shields. You've been in the military sandwich, even raided Jenin iirc, it should be easier for you to understand. Although you may see nothing wrong with it.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Ok, now you're just pissing me off. I don't mind that you have wildly differing opinions from me one bit. But don't you dare start to misquote me or put words in my mouth, mister.

Your statements in the past suggest you think Muslims worship Satan because they oppose the state of Israel, logically this would extend to palestinians who oppose the same regardless of believe.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Are you talking about suicide bombers? You might want to, in the name of accuracy, rephrase that to "murdering for your cause".

Dying for their cause is quite accurate in the context being discussed, I'm not going to dress up my language just to suit you.

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by an0n
They didn't 'kick the palestinians out'.

Britain and America kicked the **** out of everyone in the area during WW2 and gave it to the Jews in exchange for cash and ****.

I didn't say the Israelis kicked them out. I said the manner of Israel's creation is the problem - which yes, is primarily the US and Britain's fault. But they were kicked out of their own territory, so it's understandable why they're not too happy, no?

[an0n]

Hmmm.

You guys remember that whole "US fundies engineering the apocalypse" thing?

http://www.likud.nl/extr74.html

Read that. Specifically, this bit:

This, despite the fact that there is sound historical proof that Zionist leaders collaborated with the Nazis in order to escalate the Jewish Problem.

Now, I know for a ****ing fact that the entire "The Nazi's were trying to wipe out Jews" thing is bull****. Anyone with a highschool history book and an ounce of sense can see that the Nazi's hated everyone equally and strove only for world domination. All that 'superior race' crap was just Goebbels touting Himmlers stupidity to placate the masses. And it was just a coincidence that the first country on their 'to invade' list happened to be full of Jews. If it had been full of blacks, there wouldn't be a problem.

But it was full of Jews and Judaism has leveraged that fact to the extreme.

Taking all this into account, as far as conspiracy theories go, this whole "engineering the apocalypse" thing is looking pretty damn convincing.

[an0n]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
I didn't say the Israelis kicked them out. I said the manner of Israel's creation is the problem - which yes, is primarily the US and Britain's fault. But they were kicked out of their own territory, so it's understandable why they're not too happy, no?

Actually it was more a matter of the the US and Britain going "Fu[color=23][/color]ck it, we're sick of all this ****. Let the UN decide what happens", then the UN going "Well, we could split it into two states. One Arab, one Jewish."

The Arabs told the UN to go blow itself, but the Jews went "That'll do" and declared Israel a state. America then gave its endorsement.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Gank
All the soldiers were lying on the ground or crouching and had the family covered by their weapons. This implys they felt they were under threat and were holding the family against their will, therefore using them as human shields. You've been in the military sandwich, even raided Jenin iirc, it should be easier for you to understand. Although you may see nothing wrong with it.

show us a link or picture... were they covering the familky because maybe they had weapons or would strangle them or stab them gosh. to point you gun at somone hwo might kill you is horrible

hmm crouched down were they hiding in the house? waiting for some militants to pass by were they maybe searching the house for weapons caches or smuggling tunnels unless you can verify these questions they could have been doing any number of thigns in that house including what you listed and you need to find out before stating it as fact.

anyone seen movie Black Hawk Down... that guy was separated from his unit so cause he had a bunch of guys on his tail he ran into a house with a mother and her children and waitied for the guys to pass by... was he wrong to hide in there or should he have just ran down the street and let them shoot him... everything is relative...

[Splinter]

Originally posted by an0n Now, I know for a ****ing fact that the entire "The Nazi's were trying to wipe out Jews" thing is bull****. Anyone with a highschool history book and an ounce of sense can see that the Nazi's hated everyone equally and strove only for world domination. All that 'superior race' crap was just Goebbels touting Himmlers stupidity to placate the masses. And it was just a coincidence that the first country on their 'to invade' list happened to be full of Jews. If it had been full of blacks, there wouldn't be a problem.

But it was full of Jews and Judaism has leveraged that fact to the extreme.[/B]

woa treading on some major toes there I predict that whatever comes of that post wont be pleasent

[an0n]

Please. Anyone saying the Nazi's only goal was to take over the world and wipe out the Jews is a ****ing idiot.

The entire Nazi government was built on a foundation of feeding the masses an intangible, ideological enemy then rallying the people against it and behind Hitler.

[Bobboau]

An0n has a history of posting BS in a manner that makes people beleive it's realy his position, not sure if this is an example of that or not, though.

[an0n]

There's another stupid thing: You say anything against Judaism or suggest the Nazi's had goals other than genocide and everyone jumps on you.

Try and tell me I'm wrong.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Gank
All the soldiers were lying on the ground or crouching and had the family covered by their weapons. This implys they felt they were under threat and were holding the family against their will, therefore using them as human shields. You've been in the military sandwich, even raided Jenin iirc, it should be easier for you to understand. Although you may see nothing wrong with it.

Thanks for the details.

Soldiers have weapons for a reason, and - especially in the house of people who most likely hate your guts - must be ready to use them if threatened. That is why they were covering the family with their weapons - it does not nessecarily mean that they were actively threatening to shoot the family or anything of the sort. I can't tell for sure without seeing the photo or video or whatever.

Originally posted by Gank
Your statements in the past suggest you think Muslims worship Satan because they oppose the state of Israel, logically this would extend to palestinians who oppose the same regardless of believe.

Yes, I do think that Muslims (unwittingly, most likely) worship Satan. That's my opinion, which I hold because of Islam, not because of their opposing Israel.

Originally posted by Gank
Dying for their cause is quite accurate in the context being discussed, I'm not going to dress up my language just to suit you.

Don't even try to start claiming that suicide bombers are not murderers, dude. You'll just sound ridiculous.

[an0n]

Suicide bombers are as much murderers as soldiers are.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by an0n
Try and tell me I'm wrong.

you'r wr...

your wro..oh

ah, I just can't do it

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by an0n
There's another stupid thing: You say anything against Judaism or suggest the Nazi's had goals other than genocide and everyone jumps on you.

Try and tell me I'm wrong.

I haven't researched the era, but from what I understand, the Nazi's were into White Supremacy, Aryan nation, and all that stuff. They considered themselves superior to all other races. Their attempted extermination of the Jews was specifically targetted at the Jews, but had they completed that, they would have moved on to some other non-Aryan race. They just happened to go for the Jews first.

[Bobboau]

the prioritised, jews were top on there list

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by an0n
Suicide bombers are as much murderers as soldiers are.

It depends on the circumstance. You of all people should realize that. I'm not a murder, primarily because I've never shot anyone. But if I was in a war, and shot and killed an attacking enemy soldier, would I be a murderer in your eyes?

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by an0n
Actually it was more a matter of the the US and Britain going "Fu[color=23][/color]ck it, we're sick of all this ****. Let the UN decide what happens", then the UN going "Well, we could split it into two states. One Arab, one Jewish."

The Arabs told the UN to go blow itself, but the Jews went "That'll do" and declared Israel a state. America then gave its endorsement.

I stand corrected. Maybe more of the Jews' fault than I thought, then, based on that. I'll have to go and read some more....

Hmmm.

You guys remember that whole "US fundies engineering the apocalypse" thing?

http://www.likud.nl/extr74.html

Read that. Specifically, this bit:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This, despite the fact that there is sound historical proof that Zionist leaders collaborated with the Nazis in order to escalate the Jewish Problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, I know for a ****ing fact that the entire "The Nazi's were trying to wipe out Jews" thing is bull****. Anyone with a highschool history book and an ounce of sense can see that the Nazi's hated everyone equally and strove only for world domination. All that 'superior race' crap was just Goebbels touting Himmlers stupidity to placate the masses. And it was just a coincidence that the first country on their 'to invade' list happened to be full of Jews. If it had been full of blacks, there wouldn't be a problem.

But it was full of Jews and Judaism has leveraged that fact to the extreme.

Taking all this into account, as far as conspiracy theories go, this whole "engineering the apocalypse" thing is looking pretty damn convincing.

Erm, not entirely with you on that. Yes, the Nazis hated everyone, and the anti-semitic rhetoric that Goebbels and the like spouted was at least partly to get the German public onside with the government. But Hitler was definitely anti-semitic (did you see the biography thing on TV recently with Robert Carlyle as Hitler? That gives a hint as to why he hated Jews so much).

There was also, I think, a fair amount of generalised racism inherent, but then that was fairly standard at the time (the US was still segregated, and large portions of several empires were rather heavily biased in favour of white people - South Africa, the subcontinent, Australia, etc.).

yes, it's a very good point, but it doesn't have some of the implications you seem to be getting at...

[Flipside]

Theres something funny about 'Aryan' anyway, I'll see if I can find the article, but I think 'Aryan' was nothing to do with European, but was a mutation of the word 'Iranian'. But I'll try and hunt down the article first