Author Topic: Darwinism, MOTHER****ER!  (Read 19737 times)

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Offline Vinco

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I'd like to jump in here with a few comments of my own.
First:  A bit of background on myself.
I'm currently a Ph.D. student in the biological sciences, and did my undergraduate work in the field of genetics.
Before that, I was raised in a Catholic household, and went to a Catholic school for nine years.  Because of these dual experiences, I feel that I have some small understanding of both sides in this issue.

Next:  An observation regarding this thread.
I've noticed a similar pattern in many religion vs. science threads, and in my own life, when talking to the religious devotees.  While the scientists have been going out of their way to present scenarios and evidence to back up their assertions, the religious arguments seem to be a simple assertion of unshakable belief.  Some rabid, seemingly mindless soldiers on the side of science have posted here, but the later pro-science posts have been rather more rational.

While I remember faith being emphasized as an important attribute from my formative years, I lack an understanding of why many become so fanatical about their faith that they will ignore any evidence that contradicts said faith.  Faith is a vital attribute among thinking humans, even scientists.  We scientists have faith that the natural laws of the universe will hold true in our daily lives.  We believe that gravity will not suddenly cease to function, nor will the atomic forces reverse, sending our component particles flying in all directions.  However, we are charged with the task of remaining open to contradictions between faith and reality.  Look at Einstein's work with relativity.  Einstein believed in gravity, and other suck forces, but saw situations that were not covered by the old rules.  Rather than dismiss Newtonian physics entirely, Einstein set out to look for areas which were not properly explained by existing theory.  Einstein's work itself was judged incomplete, and the realm of Quantum physics took the spotlight.  Does this mean that we've abandoned our faith in gravity?  No!  It means that we've accepted that our knowledge is always incomplete, and accepted the challenge to constantly seek new explanations.

A famous saying in science is that "A million experiments will never prove me right, but it takes just one to prove me wrong."  The strength of science is its flexibility.  We realize that our "laws of nature" are the product of an incomplete understanding of the universe, and are willing to update our understanding of these phenomena as needed.  I find this sensitivity to evidence lacking in religion.  Where is your evidence for the Biblical truth, or that of the Koran, the Book of Mormon, or the Buddhist sutras?  How about the Nordic Sagas, Native American creation tales, Incan gods, and the Egyptian pantheon?  Where is your evidence in support of your grand theory of the universe?   I'll share mine.  It's called experimentation.  It requires our explanations of the world to match our observations.  As one involved daily in such experiments, I frequently see my world image shattered in small ways when an experiment fails.  This evidence convinces me that I was wrong, and leads me to a new understanding.

Where is your evidence, oh religious world?  Where is your growth in understanding?

Science and religion are truly separate entities.  Science is the controlled and accountable study of what IS.  Religion is the dogmatic belief in ONE particular explanation of the world, coupled with unwillingness to accept the validity of any evidence NOT in support of that belief.  Science is not equipped to prove or disprove the existance of a god or gods, as they exist outside the realm of factual observations, and will remain entirely in the realm of conjecture until such time as our capability for observation expands to include this realm.

I do not claim that there is or is not a divine power.  I have no evidence either way.  I do not claim the Bible is wrong, again for lack of evidence.  I merely claim that without evidence, faith is groundless.  Without questioning, thought is useless.  Without understanding the concept behind a choice, free will is nothing but an interesting phrase.

I welcome comments and complaints.
Live with honor.  Let no man coerce you to abandon it, for your honor is the only thing that is truly yours.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Well put.

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
you don't see us calling you guys bad names and stuff.


Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
I think evolution is the stupidest thing man has thought of.


:)

now surely you arn't going to tell me that no creationist has ever gone around curseing us stupid immoral evolutionists.

Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
if you guys find out the you are wrong what, happen when its too late.


then I will fall on the infinite mercy of God, but someone has to convince me I'm wrong first, not imposable, but I can't think of anything that would do it (but if I could I wouldn't beleive what I believe now would I)
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline WeatherOp

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  • I forged the ban hammer. What about that?
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But, the thing is like I said before if your are wrong, you figue that out when its too late. What do you do?, Cause God will not keep his mercy here forever. Are 100% sure about evolution?Cause if your not then your in trouble. I am 100% sure that God created the heavens and the Earth. Man has tried to get rid of God for thousands of years, they couldn't do it and they never will. Let me say if they cursed at you they aren't true Creationists.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 05:49:48 pm by 2303 »
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Offline Ghostavo

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Atheism predates religion so, technically man has tried to create gods and god for thousands of years... ;)

Vinco :yes:
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline Vinco

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WeatherOp, who are these Men to whom you refer as trying to "get rid of God"?  And which God is it?  Is it the Christian God?  Oh, wait...  there are several Christian Gods...  Each sect, perhaps each person has their own explanation for what their God is.  Does your concept of God have greater merit than all others?  If so, what evidence do you have to support this explanation of the divine?  I am genuinely interested in finding such evidence, as it would help me answer a great many questions.  If you have no evidence, then how can you justify your faith?  Could another explanation not be closer to the truth?

A personal thought of mine is that if a person could truly understand the divine, then such a divinity would be sadly limited, and with it the universe.
Live with honor.  Let no man coerce you to abandon it, for your honor is the only thing that is truly yours.

 

Offline Bobboau

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I am 99.99% sure I'm right, I am 0.0000...000001% sure you are right, the remaining percentage is that someone else is right.

let's put it this way, I am as confedent that I am right as I am confedent that the sky is blue.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 05:52:22 pm by 57 »
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learn to use PCS
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline WeatherOp

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  • I forged the ban hammer. What about that?
    • http://www.geocities.com/weather_op/pageone.html?1113100476773
In matarial none, But in my heart and the Bible plenty.
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Offline WeatherOp

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  • I forged the ban hammer. What about that?
    • http://www.geocities.com/weather_op/pageone.html?1113100476773
That means your in trouble. Like said above I am 100% sure that I am right and nothing will change that.
Decent Blacksmith, Master procrastinator.

PHD in the field of Almost Finishing Projects.

 

Offline Vinco

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WeatherOp, you cite the Bible as evidence for your beliefs.  What reason do you have to believe in this book, to the exclusion of all other religious texts?
Live with honor.  Let no man coerce you to abandon it, for your honor is the only thing that is truly yours.

 

Offline aldo_14

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I would guess that God - or Allah, or Zeus, etc - would be more concerned with how good we are as human beings than how long we spend at Church.

OH, and earlier you asked 'if there was no God what would the purpose be of living?' or similar; why should there be a purpose?  We exist, simply because in this particular iteration of the universe the dice came up right for carbon based life on this little rock.  It's no less credible than believing in a supreme diety, is it?  I certainly don't believe you can use it as an argument for a creator, anyways.

 

Offline Bobboau

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well then, I will say that you are in trouble, becase if you are wrong, you will never corect your self.

me, if I am given appropriate evedence, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong on anything, I consiter this a streangth not a weakness.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Flipside

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Maybe if it was considered more along the lines of science is trying to define just how incredible and complex the whole thing is, regardless of whether or not the scientist believes in God? After all, if you want a species to rise where it begins to dream of Godhood itself, what better way to make them than drag them up through several billion years of absolutely cut-throat competition?

Maybe it's not important whether God man Man in His image, or Man made God in his, maybe 'God' is merely a state that only we can dream of?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 06:01:52 pm by 394 »

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Quote
Originally posted by Vinco
All that Stuff


I think I'm going to like this guy. :nod:
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Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 

Offline WeatherOp

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  • I forged the ban hammer. What about that?
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Ok, lets just say that I am wron, ok acording to evolusion thats the end, But if your wrong you are fighting against a Allmighty God.
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Offline Bobboau

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well he should have tried harder to reach me, a simple ten second face to face talk would do it, he's God, if he want's me to beleive in him it would be a simple task, if there is a God evedently he want's me to not beleive in him.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Flipside

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If it is, then I shall say with every conviction that I used the evidence provided by the collection of my senses that he gave me, used the mind that he gave me. After that, it's up to Him :)

And one of the advantages of science is that we have the statement 'In an infinitely big universe, an infinite amount of things can happen'. Most scientists don't rule out death as a point-blank ending ;)

 
So we're supposed to limit how we live on the off-chance that some almighty, vengeful god will smite us because we don't believe in him with our whole beings? :lol:

Oh, and that little speech was a very interesting read, Vinco :yes2::nod:
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 06:08:02 pm by 1802 »
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Offline Ghostavo

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Quote
Ok, lets just say that I am wron, ok acording to evolusion thats the end, But if your wrong you are fighting against a Allmighty God.


So will you... what's your point?
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline WeatherOp

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  • I forged the ban hammer. What about that?
    • http://www.geocities.com/weather_op/pageone.html?1113100476773
God will not try hard to reach you. And that goes back to your free will. Its your choice. But, see I am not scared of the book of Revolation and I won't go thru it.  And the reason I belive in the Bible is Faith.
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