[Vinco]

I'd like to pose a question to the entire group.  I've been considering this issue for years, and am still stuck at an impass.
_______________________________________
Given:
There is a single God
God is omnipotent
God is omniscient
Humans were created by God
Humans were given Free Will by God
_______________________________________
How does one explain the concept of free will?
Operating within only the "givens" above, and my understanding of their interpretation, I have reached an apparent contradiction.  An omniscient God would, by definition, know the fate of any particle in the universe even before its creation.  An omnipotent God would have the power to create anything, and when combined with the omniscience, would be unable to make mistakes.  

When the fate of the universe is known even before the instant of creation, how can choices truly exist?

I'd like to add three more conjectures based upon my knowledge of Catholic teachings.
___________________________________
Conjectured:
God is "good"
Eternal suffering is "bad"
"good" and "bad" are opposing fates, and are in fact opposites.
___________________________________

As explained above, this God has the power to create the universe and everything within it.  This God knows the ultimate fate of Its creation.  *I interpret Free Will as the ability to Choose between a path that will lead either towards or away from eternal suffering.* When the conjecture of a "good" God being opposed to eternal suffering is added into the picture, then the concept of Man having Free Will and being able to Choose "bad" becomes somewhat confusing.  How can a "good" God create beings that It knows will Choose a path that will lead to eternal suffering?  If this God did not create the being knowing that it would Choose eternal suffering, then how can the givens of Omnipotence and Omniscience hold?

Does this confuse anyone else, or is it just me?

edit: added my interpretation of Free Will (within stars)

[Bobboau]

ok, let me try to put it this way, I am almost completely sure I'm right,
all other options, be it one of the many chirstian sects, or judism, islam, buhdism, paganism, zoroastrianism, all the others, are all consitered to be roughly equaly almost completely unlikely. do you even have any reason why I should consiter your religon more likely than the others?

"I am not scared of the book of Revolation"
neither am I

[Jetmech Jr.]

It's our choice to believe in something that has very little to no actual backing behind it? I know the choice I'm making...

[Flipside]

It does seem, at the very best, to make us lab-rats.

How could a God give us doubt in His existence, doesn't that seem like an extremely sadistic thing to do for a God that loves us, to let us go through our entire life terrified that there is nothing but oblivion awaiting us?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Vinco
How can a "good" God create beings that It knows will Choose a path that will lead to eternal suffering?  If this God did not create the being knowing that it would Choose eternal suffering, then how can the givens of Omnipotence and Omniscience hold?

As I stated in my earlier post it's worse than that. If the creationists are to be believed not only did he create humans knowing that some of them would choose eternal suffering, he then burried fossils to deliberately lead people astray.

[Annihilation]

Originally posted by Ghostavo


wow wow wow
Just because "they" cannot fly a plane doesn't mean that they don't think, that they don't have intelligence, that they don't learn. I dare you to go 200 000 years into the past and say that to your ancestors (or if you "believe" in the bible, go 6000 years and say that to Adam and Eve ). Give them what gave us what we have today, a similar body, motivation and enough time and you will see what "they" can do.



Life has no purpose, you make that purpose if you want, live with it. And about spirits...

What separates humans from animals are diferent levels of intelligence and brain complexity.

And what's so funny about spirits, souls? They either exist or not and it is impossible to prove one thing or other. You believe in them or not. To laugh about someone's beliefs is just impolite.

[WeatherOp]

Again the reason I belive in the Bible is faith. I don't really know how God does it, but it say that he gave humans Free will. But, also some would belive him.  And you guys forget that the devil is still around, and he is still getting people to think that we came from monkeys.

[Bobboau]

alright, this thing seems to be comeing to a close (wich would be a first) so I guess we can end it by saying;
some people beleive it is better to know than be happy,
other people would rather be happy than know.
both are perfictly valid ways of leading your life as far as I'm concerned.

[Bobboau]

or maybe it isn't winding down.

"And you guys forget that the devil is still around, and he is still getting people to think that we came from monkeys."

how do you know that isn't Seth getting all the people of the world to stop beleiveing in Ra?
(egyptian gods if you don't know)

[Flipside]

Can I point out that the first 3 people to worship Jesus were Astronomers, and therefore scientists, can I? can I?

[Vinco]

What if it's the work of Loki?  (The Norse trickster, not the FS2 ship)

[Bobboau]

wouldn't they have been more like atrologers?

[Ghostavo]

Annihilation, I was not laughing at his beliefs, but the sentence in which he used such a word, especially considering his beliefs.

Intelligence and brain complexity is diferent for all things, but seperating us from the rest of the animal kingdom just because of that when there are others close in intelligence (intelligence, not technological knowledge) is... well... a superiority complex.

[Flipside]

Yes, Bobboau, they would have, been Astrologers to a large degree, the Eastern world, by that time however, had worked out a complex system of planetary motion around the Sun, with the planets being globes, and had identified the first six planets, their distance and their orbits. And that was years before the Church that sprouted from the event started excommunicating people for saying exactly the same thing

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/rhatch/HIS-SCI-STUDY-GUIDE/0014_babylonianAstron.html

Very short bit on Babylonian Astronomy.

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb2c.html

Much longer. As you can see, the Babylonians had made quite an art from their science. Persian astronomy was at around the same level.

[Vinco]

A very solid point, Flipside.  However that Church did eventually come to its senses regarding the entire issue.  In fact, I recall that that Church does not at all teach that evolution is wrong.  The latest explanation of that stance I've heard is that Catholicism teachs that Genesis may be another parable, and that the salient fact is that God created the universe, not how It did so.

Then again, I've been removed from Catholic teachings for a number of years, so I could be mistaken.

[WeatherOp]

Because the Bible's prophies are coming true. The reason I know is cause it is in my heart and in the Bible. See I don't have the Void that some people have and there isn't something missing in side of me. I wake up each morning happy and have very few bad days. God is real in my heart, and wether you belive it is up to you, but I am done with this thread, I have said what I think needed to be said. But, I know for sure if I die where I wake up. How sure are you guys?

[Ghostavo]

I don't know if I should laugh or be appalled by that statement...

[Bobboau]

yeah, a few years ago, the Church even went so far as to admit that the earth does in fact revolve around the sun.

(no ****, the pope realised they never recanted what they said during the whole Galileo thing)

[Annihilation]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Annihilation, I was not laughing at his beliefs, but the sentence in which he used such a word, especially considering his beliefs.

Intelligence and brain complexity is diferent for all things, but seperating us from the rest of the animal kingdom just because of that when there are others close in intelligence (intelligence, not technological knowledge) is... well... a superiority complex.

OK then sorry for the misunderstanding.

That's just a manner to classify living beings, using what they can do with their brains. Cats, monkeys and whales are creatures very close to a intelligence level capable of creating tools and making changes to environment but even lizards and parrots can learn (scientific sudies proved that) but you are right this Superiority Complex exists and it is ultimately harmful for mankind, that creates arrogance and arrogance is the first step to a really big fall.

[Bobboau]

"But, I know for sure if I die where I wake up. How sure are you guys?"

I doubt I am going to 'wake up' at all. but, I doubt that the God that I have had describe to me by most Chistians would have any problem with me.