[Bobboau]

WeatherOp"..."

'big bang' and evolution are almost never thought about at the same time by scientists, because of the fact that they deal with totaly unrelated things. it's like thinking about how your car works and what is your ATM pin number, yeah it might happen every once in a while, but usualy when you are thinking about one your not going to be thinking about the other.


just becose you have a distant reletive of a monkey, does not give you the right to act 'immoraly'*. if you are a bad person you are still going to get run out of town or strung up by your justifyably enraged victims.

*immoral being acting in a fashion that benifits you at the expence of everyone else. most other definitions of immoral would work here. if you have a problem with my definition say so.

now your monkey killing his brother example.
let us consiter two populations of monkey. in one population, by instinct the monkeys would kill members of there group over trivial things like small amounts of food (lets call these the immoral monkeys), in the other group the monkeys have an instinctive behavior that encouriges shareing and helping each other (compasionate monkeys). at the end of 50,000 years wich population would have the largest population?
I beleive we will agree (if you disagree, tell me) that the compasionate group would have the larger population. now if you figure in predation, desese, and limited resources the immoral monkeys would likely have died off entierly while the compasonate monkeys would have a larger population than they started with.
as you can see evolution not only encourages morality amoung a socal speciese, it virtualy requiers it.

[Ford Prefect]

I would argue that science started long before alchemy, to the first time some proto-human made an observation about his or her environment and reached a conclusion based on it.

[Flipside]

Indeed, Bobboau, in fact, it's even possible that humanity rose to ascension simply because of those pack morals, which would have made them stronger and more numerous than other types. Possibly our knowledge of right and wrong defines who we are rather than vice versa

And yes, Ancient Babylonians studied Astronomy, which is a science, so a bit of bad wording on my part there I suppose 'What we consider Modern Science' would be a more appropriate phrase

[WeatherOp]

Well, that is free will. See you have free will, animals don't and never will. And about God proving his exsitice, I don't see how you can't, a egg hatching ito a baby chicken, the seasons haven't changed, the rain still falls, the sun still shines, But, how can you guys live with everythin being as a chance, there is a chance that a world wide flu will kill everybody or a 7 mile wide comet will hit the earth next week and destroy the Earth and there is a chance that the earth will chage orbit and float off into space or a war will break out and everyone will destroy each other with nukes.

[Bobboau]

how do you define free will and how do you know that no animal has it?

[Flipside]

To me at least, that outlook is no more doomy and gloomy than the Book of Revelations hovering over my head.

I suppose the fact is, it hasn't happened yet. It might happen tomorrow, it probably won't though. Humans are a lot less frail than we give ourselves credit for, that's what evolution teaches us. We are fit, so we survive.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
about God proving his exsitice, I don't see how you can't,
a egg hatching ito a baby chicken, cellular mass reaches criticle and an instinctive behavior compells the chick to break free
the seasons haven't changed, the seasons rely on the orbital time of earth wich has not changed
the rain still falls, gravity
the sun still shines, nuclear fusion

But, how can you guys live with everythin being as a chance, it's not a chance it's all controled by natural laws, such as gravity, there is no real chance it's just we lack the capability to amass and comprehend all the rules and all the variables
there is a chance that a world wide flu will kill everybody yup  or a 7 mile wide comet will hit the earth next week and destroy the Earth less likely but true, hopefully it won't happen untill we have the capability to do something about it  and there is a chance that the earth will chage orbit and float off into space extreemly unlikely, it would requier something like the aforementioned asteroid or something else that would kill us all it'self  or a war will break out and everyone will destroy each other with nukes. unfortunately true, people have a habit of hateing other people who they don't consiter to be part of 'us', I could explain the evolutionary reasons for this 'immorality' still exsisting if you would like

[WeatherOp]

I define free will as this. A monkey or primate gets up eats, maybe runs from a predetor, maybe a few more things, go to sleep.Next day about the same thing, next day same thing again.
He dosn't differ from that basic pattern. While, I get up do I want to use the CPU or do I just want too sleep longer, Do want to watch tv? or do I want to eat breakfast or wait till lunch, or do I want to go online and fuss about something? A monkey don't think that, he uses instinct and he basicly does the same thing all his life, cause he don't think any different. That is free will.

[Flipside]

Well, actually, if a monkey isn't hungry he won't eat. Watch a pack of Chimpanzees for a while, you'll soon be able to identify each one from it's character, Lazy, Grumpy, Greedy, it's kinda like the seven dwarves Chimp behaviour is far from Robotic. They form fighting units when in conflict, plan strategies, use simple tools, and have an extremely complex social system.

Edit : Oh yes, theres also been strong indications of reverence of old-age, a knowledge of impending death, and, on one occasion, what appeared to be the public punishment of a thief.

[Bobboau]

why is exactly that you do things diferently from one day to another?
isn't it from you makeing a desision of competeing desiers? you want to sleep, you want to eat, you want to get on the computer, you want to go to work, ect.. all at the same time. you classify these wants and prioitise them and the most important want you try to fufill (maybe you'll try to kill two birds with one stone and get two wants with the same action, or plan ahead and try to figure out the best way to acomplish the most with the least effort). so would this mean that free will is basicly the ability to have multable competeing wants and the ability to prioritise and reason?
are any of these aspects lacking in all animals (uniquely human)?

[Ghostavo]

WeatherOp, are you trying to compare the daily routine of a "monkey" and yourself? Consider this, imagine some other species was watching you and made the same judgements...

"He only get's up and satisfies his needs either through food, entertainment, social interaction or sleep, he might differ from that basic pattern but that's it. he cannot think!"

And a monkey can think for crying out loud... there are monkeys that can communicate with us through gestures. There are many evidences of inteligent behavior (AKA thinking) within the animal kingdom. Dolphins, primates, archerfish, you name it...

[WeatherOp]

But, that isn't free will. My dog won't eat if it is full, and he can be grumpy, playfull, or mean. And using tools is in a monkey's instinct, you don't see him using anything else in the wild. This will be all I post on this subject. Again is you want to belive you came from a primate thats your free will. But, stop saying bad stuff about us, that is what made me mad in the first place, you don't see me saying that stuff to you guys. Yes but then there is something that makes us different, they have a limit of intelligence, yes they can learn to communicate with us, but they won't never learn how to split the atom or fly a plane. And if there was no God what would be the purpose for living, when you die that is the end, You wouldn't be put in another creature like some people think cause you won't have a spirit.

[Flipside]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FQP/is_4447_128/ai_59520062

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/02/science/02side.html?ex=1257138000&en=93017d4402112c2d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt

Not instinctive, learnt, and selected.

[Bobboau]

I want to have a discusion on this, comeon, if you don't want to fine.

I'm trying to understand what it is exactly what you think humans have that animals lack, the ability to learn? to comprehend? 'free will is sort of a nebulus thing and it is meaningless to me unless you can tell me what it is and prove than animals don't have it'
now I am not actualy desputeing free will, I'm not one of those psudo intelectuals that likes to sayillogical things like there is no free will or consusness is an illusion, what I have a despute with you is over wether animals also posess it and I'm looking for a way to prove to you that they do, or for you to prove to me that they don't. if you don't want to partisipate then fine, this is the ultimate diference between scientists and people such as yourself, we want to know if we are wrong, you 'know' that you are not .

[edit]that came off a little more hostile than I had intended it, but I can't think of a better way to put it

[WeatherOp]

This post proves what i am talking about. Animals don't debate.

[Bobboau]

so would it be the ability to choose to use knowledge of right or wrong?

edit we posted at the same time

[Flipside]

Indeed, as I said at the start of the thread, I'm perfectly willing to accept the possiblity that God exists somewhere in the holes my knowledge, but science is a strict teacher, absolutely nothing is 'sacred' or 'written', and I don't deny that even many scientists cannot accept that.

But, expect resistance to what you are saying, just as you stand firm in your belief, other people stand firm in theres. We like a good debate around here, but just don't expect any 'outcome' as it were

[WeatherOp]

Now, you know why I want to stop posting. If people belive we evoloved and strongly belive that there is no reason to keep going in this subject. But, like I said above you don't see us calling you guys bad names and stuff. So some of you need to respect our belief too. And that is what made me mad in the first place. I want to leave you guys with this thought tho, if you guys find out the you are wrong what, happen when its too late.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by WeatherOp
Yes but then there is something that makes us different, they have a limit of intelligence, yes they can learn to communicate with us, but they won't never learn how to split the atom or fly a plane.

wow wow wow
Just because "they" cannot fly a plane doesn't mean that they don't think, that they don't have intelligence, that they don't learn. I dare you to go 200 000 years into the past and say that to your ancestors (or if you "believe" in the bible, go 6000 years and say that to Adam and Eve ). Give them what gave us what we have today, a similar body, motivation and enough time and you will see what "they" can do.

Originally posted by WeatherOp
And if there was no God what would be the purpose for living, when you die that is the end, You wouldn't be put in another creature like some people think cause you won't have a spirit.

Life has no purpose, you make that purpose if you want, live with it. And about spirits...

[Bobboau]

I supose your right there, animals don't debate,
but is that realy a a single thing or a result of us being the smartest animal on the planet, posesing a very complex symbolic language and the ability to hold many many diferent options at the same time? there is no evedence that many of the other homonids would lack the ability to debate (unfortunately there is little evedence that they could other than we the decendents of one line of them can) however, to bad they are extinct.
and does debate realy play that signifigant of a role in one's ability to poses morality?
(this was the genisis of the free will debate after all)